McGinn on Schottenheimer (very good article)

[wist43]

Yes, attitude...

Confidence, intelligence, passion, correctness, leadership and an overall ability to instill in others the desire to not only follow you, but to put it all on the line - b/c to fail would be to disappoint their leader, and that is simply unacceptable on a personal level.

Makes your heart ache for Vince Lombardi.

[vince]

This whole article has been rattling around in the back of my mind, but I've been trying to tell myself it ain't so.

There is a huge element missing in our defensive coaching...attitude.

Playing pass defense is a whole mentality. You've got to stay alert, but be loose athletically. Then when a catch is made, you've got to deliver a blow like there is no tomorrow. We are almost in reverse. We are too tight when covering, then not aggressive enough after that catch.

Jim Bates was the perfect DC and it ran downhill to his DB coach. Sanders in in over his head, and KS ain't coaching our secondary boys up worth a shit. Our guys are confused in their schemes and about 50 % as aggressive as you need to be in cover.

This hire (of KS) has always given me pause. It's pretty obvious M3 screwed up. In both the DC and DB coach. is the rest of the staff as bad a hire as these two guys? The mentioned that the WR coach seems quite competent. Hey that's good, but what is our staff overall?

M3 may well have to shitcan most of the D staff in the off-season. Can he get adequate replacements, or does he even know who to go get?

This is bad.

While passion and sidleine cheerleading on the part of coaches makes everyone feel good about how much they "care" about their team's success, I don't believe it manifests itself into improved on-the-field performance at all. Attitude is important, no doubt, but it doesn't take animated coaches to create attitude.

WHAT'S SAID is infinitely more important than HOW IT'S SAID, and we don't know what the coaches are saying unfortunately. Any style can work. There are way too many stoic, yet great coaches like Tom Landry and Bill Walsh to disprove the theory that you have to run up and down the sideline to create external motivation for a team. Even defensively, coaches like Bum Phillips (a VERY successful Defensive Coordinator) have abounded.

NFL players are self-motivated athletes who have the desire to excel deep within themselves, or they never would have reach the level they are at in the first place. Coaches running around on the sidelines or in practice are not going to make much difference in on-the-field results if the substance of what they coach isn't good. And those coaches who can effectively teach and bring out the best in players don't need to be animated personalities.

Now with all that said, I'm not sure Schottenheimer is the man, but its not because he doesn't run around the sidelines instilling "passion."

[RashanGary]

I don't know that I buy into that poor tackling is the secondary coaches fault. The article seems to imply that Bates and company taught the guys to tackle last year and now they forgot all that and tackle poorly? I will buy into an argument that the schemes are now poor perhaps and that the players may be getting burned because of that...but poor tackling? Hmmmm,,,,,not his fault.

Acctually, I think this might be the most accurate thing about the whole thing. Bates stressed tackling more than any coach I remember. He believed in simplicity and just making you tackle or shedding yoru block. He just wanted guys to go out and play, but not mess up on the little things. This new DC seems to wnat to out clever people instead of just out playing them. Kind of sad. I don't want some genius. I just want a guy who teaches football in a way thats understandable and lets the players play the game without over complicating it.

[Bretsky]

The players openly acknowledge they reacted well to Bates coaching style; it showed in their play as well.

I hope we see that sometimes down the road with these newbies.

[RashanGary]

What I remember from the Bears game, which brought back nightmares from 2004, was that after big plays guys in the secondary looked at each other and you could tell they weren't even sure who screwed up. We saw these "discussions" (sometimes very animated) in 2004 among the guys in the secondary, and we saw it a couple times in the Bear game. Confusion even after the play is run is bad preparation and that's bad coaching.

I was thinking that too Patler.

Manuel and Harris looked at each other like...What happened? I remember that happening over and over in 2004. They look almost the same now as they did then. The Secondary is great at run support and being aggressive but they have no regard for stopping the big play and when one happens, they look at each other like who was supposed to stop that. The reality is, I don't think the way it's being coached has anyone capable of stopping it.

McCarthy said Harris was supposed to push his guy outside and stay with him a little longer. Maybe by pushing him outside, it would have bought Manuel enough time to get in position. I doubt it though. Manuel was 10 steps slow there.

They need to stop going for broke with the way they play defense. The need to have a bend but dont' break mentality and then, occasionally Kamp or KGB will get pressure, not forced but just doing regular things in an extraordinary way. Maybe Hawk will just be in usual position and make a rutine hit but because he's stronger and more viscious than most LB's he'll force a fumble. Collins will just sit back again and maybe he'll make a routine coverage play but instead of must breaking up the pass, he'll get in front of one because he has deceptive speed and the QB thought he could fit it in. What I'm trying to say is that they're trying to out clever people again and they need to just out play them. It's pathetic when coaches try to control the out come of the game when all they should do is prepare players so they can control the outcome. Teach them how to tackle, play simple but physical defense. Just let the players play and tell them when they did something wrong. Make sure they know how to tackle and know how to position themselves in certain situations. Elaborate schemes have never worked in my experience in wathcing defense but I mgiht not have seen enough to have a really valid opinion here. I just liked the way Bates did it better.

[RashanGary]

There is one thing I like about our defense....

Manuel always throws late hits when he could just touch a guy. Sure, it's almost cheap but it shows that they believe hurting the opponent is important. I play that way too.

A couple years ago when I was acctually in really good shape, I played tackle football with a friend. Every time I got a chance, I bounced him off the ground. Eventually he went down easier and easier adn instead of trying to get yards he just tried to protect his body. I dont' try to play mean, I was growling though and eventually he just wanted to quit. I felt kind of bad but i was so pumped up, it was such a rush. Anyway, I l like guys who play that way. I can relate. I wasn't beating up some dude half my size iether. I was 165 and he was 205. I was a framer and ripped and he worked out but nothing compares to 10 hours a day of labor on a 23 year old body. I worked on my explosion too. We were playing football so I did 20 minutes every other day just doing explosive squats where I jumped as high as possible, doign explosive lunges with weights, ect....Anyway, I would train hard like 6 or 7 days before playing and then let my body reast really well before I knew I was going to play. I wasn't trying to be overly competitive or anythign but that is all I know how to be. I didn't tell anybody how I trained, I wnated a secret advange. God, I wouldn't want to play with me either.

That explosion training made me so f'in quick. I would fall down and a ball would be thrown over my head and I'd jump up like 35" and snatch it out of the air and wonder how I did that because I dont' remember ever being able to do what I was doing physically. It was crazy. I'm not bragging. This is my prime I'm speakign of. I'm now 25, sit on my ass all day. Exersise like 10 minutes a day just so it deosnt get too out of control and would get whooped my most highschool kids. That is what 2 years of doing nothing does to a body....I just wanted to reflect on a good time and I'm drinking caffiene again so my personality has gotten brash, aggressive and maybe boastfull at times.

[RashanGary]

LOL..

For liek a week I would eat really well and sparsely to drop like 5 LBS. I found that 5 lbs made a big difference in quickness. Then before I would play, I would eat a good meal in the morning, more than I am used to and spend the day streching and just making sure I was loose...


God, I was a reall fuker...Then I'd act all friendly like I was tired and didn't eat all day but really I was planning this for like a week. I'd be like, you sure you want to play, I"m sore from work ect....LOL

It was bad...I love to compete though. I just love football, playing it, wathcing it, talking about it, whatever......Sundays are so much better in the fall arn't they.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I don't think it's poor tackling. Overall, the tackling looks good. We still just look lost on coverage, sychematically.

[Partial]

I am sure the beat writers read what the fans are upset about to form stories. After all, their goal is selling the most papers, and every fan out there wants to be able to toute "see, I knew what I was talking about. This highly-paid and highly-regarded professional writer agrees with me!!"

I think we all have a much louder, more persuasive voice then we know it. While I realize most people do not share the same undying love for the Packers as we have, I have a hunch the management at least considers the message board/radio show chatter behind the scenes. After all, they certainly don't want to turn off/offend their hardcore fans.

[Partial]

There is one thing I like about our defense....

Manuel always throws late hits when he could just touch a guy. Sure, it's almost cheap but it shows that they believe hurting the opponent is important. I play that way too.

A couple years ago when I was acctually in really good shape, I played tackle football with a friend. Every time I got a chance, I bounced him off the ground. Eventually he went down easier and easier adn instead of trying to get yards he just tried to protect his body. I dont' try to play mean, I was growling though and eventually he just wanted to quit. I felt kind of bad but i was so pumped up, it was such a rush. Anyway, I l like guys who play that way. I can relate. I wasn't beating up some dude half my size iether. I was 165 and he was 205. I was a framer and ripped and he worked out but nothing compares to 10 hours a day of labor on a 23 year old body. I worked on my explosion too. We were playing football so I did 20 minutes every other day just doing explosive squats where I jumped as high as possible, doign explosive lunges with weights, ect....Anyway, I would train hard like 6 or 7 days before playing and then let my body reast really well before I knew I was going to play. I wasn't trying to be overly competitive or anythign but that is all I know how to be. I didn't tell anybody how I trained, I wnated a secret advange. God, I wouldn't want to play with me either.

That explosion training made me so f'in quick. I would fall down and a ball would be thrown over my head and I'd jump up like 35" and snatch it out of the air and wonder how I did that because I dont' remember ever being able to do what I was doing physically. It was crazy. I'm not bragging. This is my prime I'm speakign of. I'm now 25, sit on my ass all day. Exersise like 10 minutes a day just so it deosnt get too out of control and would get whooped my most highschool kids. That is what 2 years of doing nothing does to a body....I just wanted to reflect on a good time and I'm drinking caffiene again so my personality has gotten brash, aggressive and maybe boastfull at times.

that just kinda makes you a dick. Why would you brag about exercising unnecessary roughness on a friend? There is no need to play cheap and dirty unless you know you are outmatched.

[rdanomly]

I am sure the beat writers read what the fans are upset about to form stories. After all, their goal is selling the most papers, and every fan out there wants to be able to toute "see, I knew what I was talking about. This highly-paid and highly-regarded professional writer agrees with me!!"

I think we all have a much louder, more persuasive voice then we know it. While I realize most people do not share the same undying love for the Packers as we have, I have a hunch the management at least considers the message board/radio show chatter behind the scenes. After all, they certainly don't want to turn off/offend their hardcore fans.

So who wants to take a guess at which packerrat is really a journalist in hiding?

[Partial]

The players openly acknowledge they reacted well to Bates coaching style; it showed in their play as well.

I hope we see that sometimes down the road with these newbies.

Didn't Harris have a locker room explosion at the end of last year, or was that 2004? Regardless, I don't think you'll see the support for the defensive regime this year, if ever. I think you'll consistently get support for Ray McCarthy (or is it Mike Rhodes?) from the players, though.

[Partial]

Yes, attitude...

Confidence, intelligence, passion, correctness, leadership and an overall ability to instill in others the desire to not only follow you, but to put it all on the line - b/c to fail would be to disappoint their leader, and that is simply unacceptable on a personal level.

Makes your heart ache for Vince Lombardi.

Or Holmgren. Or going after someone from a consistently successful program that either called the plays on their side of the ball or was closely affiliated with the play calling and game planning.

I realize the Pats staff was already gutted, but I would have looked their or to Pittsburg for our new head coach.

[Partial]

I don't know that I buy into that poor tackling is the secondary coaches fault. The article seems to imply that Bates and company taught the guys to tackle last year and now they forgot all that and tackle poorly? I will buy into an argument that the schemes are now poor perhaps and that the players may be getting burned because of that...but poor tackling? Hmmmm,,,,,not his fault.

Poor coaching can affect every area of a players performance. Things happen very quickly out there, and if a player is mentally unprepared he won't be in proper position, and being out of position leads to taking poor angles and using poor technique.

All of these guys know the physical mechanics of tackling... they've been drilled on it all of their lives; but, knowing how to do something, and being mentally prepared and willing to do it, especially when it is something that sometimes calls for some sacrifice (like making sure you get your head in front), are two different things.

Good tackling requires not only the obvious physicality, but a mental and philosophical committment on the part of the player as well... And, that is one of the responsibilities of the coach.

Amen, you hit the nail on the head. Obviously these kids know how to hit someone and know how to play. Now, they need to find someone who can improve their skills further and motivate them to hit (because after all, they're getting paid a significant sum of money whether they win or lose games).

[HarveyWallbangers]

The tackling has been pretty rock solid compared to the last 2-3 years. The coverage breakdowns have been appalling though. In that aspect of the game, it looks a lot like 2004 again.