McGinn on Schottenheimer (very good article)

[Partial]

That is a great article and as usual McGinn relies heavily on pro scouts, which I love. He has a tendency to throw in some things that are ridiculous (implying that the fight between Carroll and Thomas was a coaching failure? I don't buy it).
But basically it is no great insight to see that the secondary has been worse when he is the coach.

What I want to know is. Why has Lionel Washinton not gotten the job? Every staff keeps him. That implies he must have something going for him. I mean, We've been changing D coordinators every year, but yet he stays. The players seem to love him. He played the position, he's an interactive coach. He put boxing gloves on Carroll to get him to stop holding(maybe they just have to carry that over to the games ). I just don't understand.

And I feel for the guy. Playing under Coach Shoddy and Slowik. Anyone ever work for a boss who was obviously dim witted and incompetent? Mmm hmm exactly

Slowik was a solid DB coach and has coached one of the best secondaries in FB since leaving the Pack. Shoddy isn't half the coach Slowik is. I take this article with a grain of salt because as you said, he cannot explain the difference of why the players seem to play worse under him. I have wondered since the new defensive regime was brought in why LW didn't get the job despite MMs public and never-ending support for him, and then again this year when another new regime came in despite the solid performance from the secondary last year. Clearly, the head coaches don't feel he has what it takes to be the coach there.

[Partial]

The tackling has been pretty rock solid compared to the last 2-3 years. The coverage breakdowns have been appalling though. In that aspect of the game, it looks a lot like 2004 again.

Obviously, the biggest change there is Manual and Collins, since they are both much bigger hitters than Sharper and Roman of 2004. Roman F'd up a tackle on Westbrooks big run today.

I am really curious as to why they seem to have regressed so much despite another season of coniditioning, weight training, and experience. Just doesn't add up to me. Must be the coaching.

[KYPack]

This whole article has been rattling around in the back of my mind, but I've been trying to tell myself it ain't so.

There is a huge element missing in our defensive coaching...attitude.

Playing pass defense is a whole mentality. You've got to stay alert, but be loose athletically. Then when a catch is made, you've got to deliver a blow like there is no tomorrow. We are almost in reverse. We are too tight when covering, then not aggressive enough after that catch.

Jim Bates was the perfect DC and it ran downhill to his DB coach. Sanders in in over his head, and KS ain't coaching our secondary boys up worth a shit. Our guys are confused in their schemes and about 50 % as aggressive as you need to be in cover.

This hire (of KS) has always given me pause. It's pretty obvious M3 screwed up. In both the DC and DB coach. is the rest of the staff as bad a hire as these two guys? The mentioned that the WR coach seems quite competent. Hey that's good, but what is our staff overall?

M3 may well have to shitcan most of the D staff in the off-season. Can he get adequate replacements, or does he even know who to go get?

This is bad.

While passion and sidleine cheerleading on the part of coaches makes everyone feel good about how much they "care" about their team's success, I don't believe it manifests itself into improved on-the-field performance at all. Attitude is important, no doubt, but it doesn't take animated coaches to create attitude.

WHAT'S SAID is infinitely more important than HOW IT'S SAID, and we don't know what the coaches are saying unfortunately. Any style can work. There are way too many stoic, yet great coaches like Tom Landry and Bill Walsh to disprove the theory that you have to run up and down the sideline to create external motivation for a team. Even defensively, coaches like Bum Phillips (a VERY successful Defensive Coordinator) have abounded.

NFL players are self-motivated athletes who have the desire to excel deep within themselves, or they never would have reach the level they are at in the first place. Coaches running around on the sidelines or in practice are not going to make much difference in on-the-field results if the substance of what they coach isn't good. And those coaches who can effectively teach and bring out the best in players don't need to be animated personalities.

Now with all that said, I'm not sure Schottenheimer is the man, but its not because he doesn't run around the sidelines instilling "passion."

You miss my point.

I don't care if a coach jumps around like a maniac, or buries his hands in his hoodie like Belachick. I want the players confident, poised and fired up.

Bates used to jump & twitch 'cause that was his style. it was his coaching that caught my attention. Schottenheimer is just the secondary coach anyhow, I don't recall a real animated DB coach.

Whatever the reason, these DB's ain't assignment sure & that isn't hacking the program.

Schottenheimer had problems in his last tour here & things ain't much better this time around. I don't think Sanders and Schottenheimer are the guys to get the job done, based on the performance of their troops.

[vince]

This whole article has been rattling around in the back of my mind, but I've been trying to tell myself it ain't so.

There is a huge element missing in our defensive coaching...attitude.

Playing pass defense is a whole mentality. You've got to stay alert, but be loose athletically. Then when a catch is made, you've got to deliver a blow like there is no tomorrow. We are almost in reverse. We are too tight when covering, then not aggressive enough after that catch.

Jim Bates was the perfect DC and it ran downhill to his DB coach. Sanders in in over his head, and KS ain't coaching our secondary boys up worth a shit. Our guys are confused in their schemes and about 50 % as aggressive as you need to be in cover.

This hire (of KS) has always given me pause. It's pretty obvious M3 screwed up. In both the DC and DB coach. is the rest of the staff as bad a hire as these two guys? The mentioned that the WR coach seems quite competent. Hey that's good, but what is our staff overall?

M3 may well have to shitcan most of the D staff in the off-season. Can he get adequate replacements, or does he even know who to go get?

This is bad.

While passion and sidleine cheerleading on the part of coaches makes everyone feel good about how much they "care" about their team's success, I don't believe it manifests itself into improved on-the-field performance at all. Attitude is important, no doubt, but it doesn't take animated coaches to create attitude.

WHAT'S SAID is infinitely more important than HOW IT'S SAID, and we don't know what the coaches are saying unfortunately. Any style can work. There are way too many stoic, yet great coaches like Tom Landry and Bill Walsh to disprove the theory that you have to run up and down the sideline to create external motivation for a team. Even defensively, coaches like Bum Phillips (a VERY successful Defensive Coordinator) have abounded.

NFL players are self-motivated athletes who have the desire to excel deep within themselves, or they never would have reach the level they are at in the first place. Coaches running around on the sidelines or in practice are not going to make much difference in on-the-field results if the substance of what they coach isn't good. And those coaches who can effectively teach and bring out the best in players don't need to be animated personalities.

Now with all that said, I'm not sure Schottenheimer is the man, but its not because he doesn't run around the sidelines instilling "passion."

You miss my point.

I don't care if a coach jumps around like a maniac, or buries his hands in his hoodie like Belachick. I want the players confident, poised and fired up.

Bates used to jump & twitch 'cause that was his style. it was his coaching that caught my attention. Schottenheimer is just the secondary coach anyhow, I don't recall a real animated DB coach.

Whatever the reason, these DB's ain't assignment sure & that isn't hacking the program.

Schottenheimer had problems in his last tour here & things ain't much better this time around. I don't think Sanders and Schottenheimer are the guys to get the job done, based on the performance of their troops.

Then, as far as Shoddy is concerned, we agree on that!

I'm giving Sanders a little more time, because he seems to have half (and the most important) part of the equation going... stop the run... but the pass defense has got to be addressed... We'll see how it goes.

Next week could be even worse... I certainly hope not.

[red]

good read

its obvious something is very wrong, and it looks like the blame should go right on the coach. we have 2 pro bowl cb's, both look like rookies this year. harris was all world last year and can't do anything this year.

collins looked great last year, and now in his second year, he looks like a lost rookie

manuel, was a capable starter on a super bowl team last year, and sucks something massive, this year.

for all those players to regress like they have, and as badly as they have, you have to look at the coach IMO

if it wasn't for our pathetic secondary play, we might be a decent team this year. the one massive problem with this team, is that we can't stop the pass, at all

[mission]

its a lot easier to make a sure tackle when you're in a position to do that. being lost and playing on your back foot isnt that.

he's a horrible coach who's making us look worse than we really are.

[Guiness]

What I want to know is. Why has Lionel Washinton not gotten the job? Every staff keeps him. That implies he must have something going for him. I mean, We've been changing D coordinators every year, but yet he stays. The players seem to love him. He played the position, he's an interactive coach. He put boxing gloves on Carroll to get him to stop holding(maybe they just have to carry that over to the games Smile ). I just don't understand.

Not to mention that one of the reasons MM stated for leaving was that Washington didn't get the position.

I rather have MM still here, and Washington the DB coach myself!!!

edit: I see Fritz said the same thing.

[vince]

The Blame Game: Kurt Schottenheimer and the Secondary

September 25, 2006
Written by Rick Cina - PackerChatters Staff


Kurt Schottenheimer is often heavily blamed for the current woes in the Packers secondary. But what do we really know about what Kurt Schottenheimer is or isn’t doing in the coaches’ rooms, in the film rooms, or on the practice field? Not much, if anything at all.

We don’t know exactly how much say he has in devising the defensive game plans. We don’t know exactly how much influence he has in play selection during the course of a game. And we don’t exactly know what kind of things he says or doesn’t say to the defensive backs he coaches.

And yet it still seems quite popular to assert that if the defensive backs are playing poorly---and they’ve played about as poorly as they did in 2004 to this point---then it probably has a lot to do with Schottenheimer’s coaching deficiencies specifically.

We don’t have many facts to go on, but the one fact we do have---that Schottenheimer is back coaching the defensive backs again after a one-year hiatus---seems to be enough for many observers to altogether indict him.

But consider how unimpressively the offensive line is said to be performing (especially on running plays) so far this season. And then consider that Joe Philbin, the offensive line coach, doesn’t seem to be getting the same blame heaped upon him that Schottenheimer is.

Or consider that Winston Moss’ name is rarely, if ever, mentioned when discussing Brady Poppinga’s well-publicized coverage problems.

And why does Lionel Washington seem to get a perpetual free pass whenever the shoddy play of the defensive backs is mentioned? Washington has survived the firings of two head coaches, as well as four defensive coordinators, and yet he still retains his post on the coaching staff.

Apparently there are assistant coaches who are liked (or at least nothing much is ever said about them), and those who are not liked. Schottenheimer is a flaming example of the latter.

If Mike McCarthy would have brought in a defensive backs coach who had a name that Packer fans had never heard of, it’s likely there would be no more than a whisper about the new coach’s toxic influence on the flawed secondary play.

Now, is it possible that Schottenheimer has had a lot to do with the Green Bay’s tendencies to give up so many long pass plays through the first three games? Sure, that’s possible.

But it’s also possible, and maybe even probable, that the recent tendencies to give up big passing plays has more to do with performance deficiencies by the players themselves than it has to do with a single assistant coach with a sullied reputation.

Unlike our scant knowledge of actual assistant coaching performances and behaviors, we can know a thing or two about how poorly individual players have performed in the last three games just by watching them on television.

From my vantage point (which I fully acknowledge isn’t a duly informed one), Marquand Manuel has been taking wrong angles on tackles. He’s been biting on the fakes and double moves of opposing receivers. He’s seemingly been out of position on some key plays, or at least it appears he’s not where he should be. And, again from my vantage point, he doesn’t have much speed, nor has he even flashed much quickness. For all the talk of him being something of a coach, a teacher, out there on the field, he’s the one who appears to play in a more confused manner than the other defensive backs do.

Nick Collins has, from my vantage point, been tackling well enough and covering well enough. But he’s had some lapses, such as falling down twice last week when the ball was in the air, that were not necessarily characteristic of how he played a year ago.

Charles Woodson has, from my vantage point, been playing rather softly, or a bit too casually for my taste. It’s as if he thinks that playing at a top level just comes naturally to him. And I don’t think playing top-notch football can be done at this level without simultaneously putting forth a top-notch effort.

So, in my opinion, Marquand Manuel’s apparent tackling, covering, and speed deficiencies, Nick Collins’ costly lapses, and Charles Woodson’s apparently haphazard playing style are in and of themselves more to blame for Green Bay’s poor secondary showing thus far than whatever Kurt Schottenheimer is or isn’t doing in his duties as an assistant coach.

And that would probably still be the case even if we did know several specifics about the in-week and game-day coaching behaviors of Marty’s younger brother.

And we don’t know those specifics. Which makes our presumptions about the poisonous nature of Kurt Schottenheimer’s influence on Green Bay’s secondary all the more suspect.

I don't agree with the perspective this writer puts forth, but he does make some points worthy of consideration...

All we can go on is results, or lack thereof, and I believe that our starting secondary has the skills to be much more effective than they've been thus far. The fact that they haven't been effective yet means they're not understanding their techniques and responsibilities - a situation in which responsibility lies with the coach.

[pbmax]

I agree, look at the stats McGinn quoted:

The opponents' passer rating of 99.1 in 2004 shattered the club record of 86.1 set by Scooter McLean's outfit in '58. In two games, the opponents' rating is 97.1.

And then consider that last year, the good among the bad, we gave up a 86.2 opposing QB rating.

2004: 99.1 Slowik/Schott/Washington
2006: 97.1 Sanders/Schott/Washinton
2005: 86.2 Bates/Baker/Washington
1958: 86.1 Scooter McLean

Our pass D is awful no matter who coaches it in the last three years. 86.2 last year put us at 19th in the league in defense against the pass.

Is Schottenheimer worse that Baker? Probably, maybe definitely. But there are other holes here. And the biggest is pass rush.

There is a reason TT spent his money here and it wasn't because the pass D was in wonderful shape.

It will be an interesting test to see if McCarthy is cold-blooded enough to ax him.

[Terry]

Jim Bates was the perfect DC and it ran downhill to his DB coach. Sanders in in over his head, and KS ain't coaching our secondary boys up worth a shit. Our guys are confused in their schemes and about 50 % as aggressive as you need to be in cover.

This hire (of KS) has always given me pause. It's pretty obvious M3 screwed up. In both the DC and DB coach. is the rest of the staff as bad a hire as these two guys? The mentioned that the WR coach seems quite competent. Hey that's good, but what is our staff overall?

Sanders is getting a bad rap. He's a very bright guy and he looks like he might turn out to be a very good DC.

It'll be hard to know as long as Kurt is there. Slowik had a big problem with Kurt in 2004 - worse, actually, than now. He's a brilliant secondary coach and he has a brilliant mind. He never really got a proper chance as DC, because Schotty undermined him so badly. I mean BADLY. Schotty just simply wouldn't cooperate. Slowik had a lot of creative ideas (and creativity has been sadly lacking in GB until this year), but Schotty would absolutely refuse to implement them. Many times, Schotty would go straight to Sherman about things, bypassing Slowik entirely. And Sherman didn't stand up for Slowik, who had been one of his best friends. Something happened to Sherman after 2003 (we all know what) and he changed. As a result, he just sort of threw Slowik to the wolves.

It's impossible to properly evaluate Sanders until the secondary mess is cleaned up. It would be a damned shame if he went down for all the wrong reasons.

[swede]

Manuel always throws late hits when he could just touch a guy. Sure, it's almost cheap but it shows that they believe hurting the opponent is important. I play that way too.

In Marquand Molasse's case, the only way he gets a chance to hit a guy is after he's already down.

[pbmax]

It'll be hard to know as long as Kurt is there. Slowik had a big problem with Kurt in 2004 - worse, actually, than now. He's a brilliant secondary coach and he has a brilliant mind. He never really got a proper chance as DC, because Schotty undermined him so badly. I mean BADLY. Schotty just simply wouldn't cooperate. Slowik had a lot of creative ideas (and creativity has been sadly lacking in GB until this year), but Schotty would absolutely refuse to implement them. Many times, Schotty would go straight to Sherman about things, bypassing Slowik entirely. And Sherman didn't stand up for Slowik, who had been one of his best friends. Something happened to Sherman after 2003 (we all know what) and he changed. As a result, he just sort of threw Slowik to the wolves.

You seem to be referencing information that could only be known to coaches and those deep inside the organization. This kind of speculation, that KS is now undermining Sanders like he undermined Slowik is hard to accept and I would hope you have something factual to back it up.

And I also find it hard to believe the Sherman sided with KS against Slowik on all things considering that Sherman choose Slowik personally after 4th and 26th debacle.

And then Sherman, after buying what you say KS was selling, turned around and fired KS. Sounds all over the map to me.

[KYPack]

Jim Bates was the perfect DC and it ran downhill to his DB coach. Sanders in in over his head, and KS ain't coaching our secondary boys up worth a shit. Our guys are confused in their schemes and about 50 % as aggressive as you need to be in cover.

This hire (of KS) has always given me pause. It's pretty obvious M3 screwed up. In both the DC and DB coach. is the rest of the staff as bad a hire as these two guys? The mentioned that the WR coach seems quite competent. Hey that's good, but what is our staff overall?

Sanders is getting a bad rap. He's a very bright guy and he looks like he might turn out to be a very good DC.

It'll be hard to know as long as Kurt is there. Slowik had a big problem with Kurt in 2004 - worse, actually, than now. He's a brilliant secondary coach and he has a brilliant mind. He never really got a proper chance as DC, because Schotty undermined him so badly. I mean BADLY. Schotty just simply wouldn't cooperate. Slowik had a lot of creative ideas (and creativity has been sadly lacking in GB until this year), but Schotty would absolutely refuse to implement them. Many times, Schotty would go straight to Sherman about things, bypassing Slowik entirely. And Sherman didn't stand up for Slowik, who had been one of his best friends. Something happened to Sherman after 2003 (we all know what) and he changed. As a result, he just sort of threw Slowik to the wolves.

It's impossible to properly evaluate Sanders until the secondary mess is cleaned up. It would be a damned shame if he went down for all the wrong reasons.

Disagree with most of this. Slowik came billed as some kind of Blitz master. He supposedly had all these trick schemes to enhance our D.

I attended the Packers Colts game in Indy in 2004. I had the experience of watching Peyton Manning burn Slowiks' blitzing D for several scores. Slowik then put in a whole new cover scheme for the remainder of the game. That adjustment did't bother Manning much either.

I don't think Slowik is a great D coordinator. He might be in some situations, but he needs a team that can blitz sucessfully and cover in a blitz scheme.

As far as Schotty undermining Slowik, I think Slowik undermined himself. I heard a little about something like that, but I don't think it's significant.