The Packer Plan - Looking Ahead

[Bretsky]

I keep hoping that the "Carolina model" (NFC championship game in 2 yrs') can still be achieved.

In order to do that, you've got to be well-versed in the vet FA market. TT has shown the vet FA market is over his head and against his religion or something.

We are gonna have to improve the talent on this team and soon, or it's gonna be a horror show.

DITTO; GREAT POINTS. Unless TT uses his money intelligently in FA as well, this is going to be a long time

[wist43]

What happens if 2008 comes and Rodgers is no damn good? Start planning for 2012?

Think about that!!!

I've been saying for almost a couple of years now that 2008 is the best we could hope for a return to respecability. But think about the ramifications if they aren't decent by 2008...

If they're not competitive by 2008, then that means that both TT and M3 have failed, and will likely be fired - enter new regime.

The new regime comes in, and we can safely assume that there isn't much talent in the cupboard, hires a new coaching staff, likely with new offensive and defensive schemes, and they're starting from scratch - again. Then we'll be putting a time table on that regime, hoping that they'll be competitive again by 2012.

It could happen.

[Patler]

What happens if 2008 comes and Rodgers is no damn good? Start planning for 2012?

Think about that!!!

I've been saying for almost a couple of years now that 2008 is the best we could hope for a return to respecability. But think about the ramifications if they aren't decent by 2008...

If they're not competitive by 2008, then that means that both TT and M3 have failed, and will likely be fired - enter new regime.

The new regime comes in, and we can safely assume that there isn't much talent in the cupboard, hires a new coaching staff, likely with new offensive and defensive schemes, and they're starting from scratch - again. Then we'll be putting a time table on that regime, hoping that they'll be competitive again by 2012.

It could happen.

Well of course it could happen. It does all the time. No team will be successful with an ineffective GM or a poor coach. TT has to be the right guy for GM, and MM has to be the coach TT thinks he is. But there is no point in worrying about either one just yet.

[4and12to12and4]

One thing I disagree with this plan is that I find it hard to believe that Barnett will still be a Packer in '08. He will bolt in FA, so he can go to a team which he feels will "appreciate" him more and he can be the big dog of the linebackers core. Hodge will replace him as ML by the end of the year, or more probable, the beginning of next year.

[MadtownPacker]

Well my faith in TT has been somewhat rocked the last two week but Shadow layed out a nice game plan for the team. Even if Rodgers doesnt work out (which I think he will) whats to say a 2nd or 3rd round QB pick doesnt come out of nowhere to take the reins? I think getting whoever is gonna be the guy a good supporting cast is all that matters.

[vince]

I keep hoping that the "Carolina model" (NFC championship game in 2 yrs') can still be achieved.

In order to do that, you've got to be well-versed in the vet FA market. TT has shown the vet FA market is over his head and against his religion or something.

We are gonna have to improve the talent on this team and soon, or it's gonna be a horror show.

Disagree here. TT knows that, at this stage of the project, it doesn't make sense to go out and overpay for free agents on the downside of their career. I think he knows exactly what he's doing. I predict that TT will make some bolder moves this offseason, because he'll know more about what how the current players fit into the team's direction than he did going into this year.

Many people say that TT didn't have a choice with Wahle. I don't agree with that. I believe he could have worked hard to get him resigned, but he felt it important to get the cap in order, rather than continue to restructure deals and creatively apply bandaids to cure a disease. My opinion is that he should have resigned Mike Wahle, but that's easy for me to say because I have the luxury of seeing how things have turned out on the o-line since. This is the only glaring mistake that Thompson has made, and he's admitted as much too.

I'm sure Ted didn't get everyone he would have like to have signed in FA because there were teams who felt they were closer to contention - that were willing to reset the market for these players. We shouldn't have gone out and done that when we had the uncertainty of not knowing how players would fit into the direction of a new coaching staff coming in. Also there were too many holes to realistically think one player would be the difference between mediocrity and super bowl contention. Why get yourself back into cap hell when you aren't ready to compete for the big prize yet?

I think this next offseason will be much more telling in terms of TT's free agent acumen, assuming that this team shows signs of growth this year.

[Harlan Huckleby]

One thing I disagree with this plan is that I find it hard to believe that Barnett will still be a Packer in '08. He will bolt in FA,

No way. Barnett is one of the few excellent players left on the team. They will resign him.

I was one of the people who wanted to see Hodge in the middle, Barnett moved outside. And I'd still be open to that option. But I'm wondering whether Hodge is such a valuable player, if he is too slow for pass coverage. I just don't know.

[Packnut]

O line

This "pro TT" scenario is filled with several holes. 1st off TT has stated over and over, he does'nt like FA's yet you guys believe he will sign good one's when needed. Look at his track record of FA's that he has signed and please show me where he was right even once? Woodson and Manuel have not played anywhere as good as the money they were paid dictates. I won't even bring up all the clowns he's brought in since he's been GM.

2nd is the fact of believing that the O line is gonna get good just through experience. That is a huge leap from where we are now. Clifton is on his last leg and Moll will never be anything more than a back-up. We have zero depth if and when the injury bug hits. The O line is our biggest weakness and anyone who believes evaluating O linemen is one of TT's strength's is insane.

3rd is the Rodgers scenario. He really has shown very little. Yes he did improve from last season to this, but the truth is he was so bad last season, that he had to improve. He may become a good QB but he will need some blue chip players around him and more important, an O line to give him time. IF he is'nt the answer, then TT will have set this program back 3 yrs.

4th is the problem that while we wait for the young guys to learn and get experience, the few good players we have like Harris, Green and Driver get older.

The 5th is depth. Let's throw out history and assume TT finally has an awakening and does get a few blue chip guys. While he's building starters, we will have no depth and injuries happen.

These are just a few examples and believe me, there are more. To believe we are even 2 seasons away from even being competitive is wishfull thinking. How long does it take MM to grow as a HC? His choice of DB coach is a very troubling sign as to his"instincts".

I wish I could be as optimistic as some of you, but I think age has much to do with the futuristic view of this franchise. If your young and hav'nt lived through the 70's and 80's, you would have a much more optimistic view with nothing to compare the mistakes that TT has made with one's you've seen in the past. When you get older, time passes much more quickly and you don't want it wasted. TT has already wasted enough time, even if some of you don't see it.

[4and12to12and4]

I agree with your assessment of Barnett's talent, Harlan, but I still feel that he is going to want more money than the Pack is willing to pay him, and with our depth at this position, I think that the Packer brass will let him go simply because we have enough "speedy" linebackers on the team, and will want to go with a tougher, power backer in the middle because of the scheme we run on D.

[Terry]

Do you truly believe Brett Favre is not extremely concerned with his place in the record books?

More importantly, Harlan might have been concerned with Favre's place in the record books - and rightly so. It does a lot for a franchise to have had the QB, for instance, who broke all the records. Plus, there's a symbiotic effect of different historical legacies wherein the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. Hell, Lombardi's successes were more than forty years ago and they still help the franchise.

[The Shadow]

I think it will be a bumpy ride, but it will pay off with a very successful team in the long run.

[vince]

Re: O line

This "pro TT" scenario is filled with several holes. 1st off TT has stated over and over, he does'nt like FA's yet you guys believe he will sign good one's when needed. Look at his track record of FA's that he has signed and please show me where he was right even once? Woodson and Manuel have not played anywhere as good as the money they were paid dictates. I won't even bring up all the clowns he's brought in since he's been GM.

Packnut, you are either misunderstanding what TT has said or are oversimplifying it to try to support your belief.

TT has said that he doesn't believe in overpaying for what you tend to receive in free agency. He's exactly correct in that assessment. It's clear that the key to success in this league is in getting VALUE, which, by definition, means that you don't overpay to sign underperforming players. To say that he won't sign people to help the team is, quite simply, ignoring the facts to support an argument.

Here's a list of the "clowns" he's signed that are currently starting or making significant contributions to help build depth and improve the talent foundation of the team.

Aaron Kampman
Ahman Green
Charles Woodson
Ryan Pickett
Jon Ryan
Marquand Manual
Koren Robinson

And here's the list of "clowns" he's signed that are have added more talent to the roster than was previously in place.

Noah Herron
Chris White
Tory Humphrey
Donald Lee
Jason Hunter
Tracy White
Ruvell Martin
Kenderick Allen
Ben Taylor
Jarrett Bush
Charlie Peprah
Tony Palmer

Over the course of his contract, I believe that Woodson will be a good signing. You can choose to focus on what he's making this year, which of course was front loaded through smart cap management strategy by TT.

Manual is still fitting in after not suiting up most of the pre-season because of injury. To judge his performance this soon is another oversimplification to support your belief about TT.

Beyond that, you tell me who he should have signed and for how much...

2nd is the fact of believing that the O line is gonna get good just through experience. That is a huge leap from where we are now. Clifton is on his last leg and Moll will never be anything more than a back-up. We have zero depth if and when the injury bug hits. The O line is our biggest weakness and anyone who believes evaluating O linemen is one of TT's strength's is insane.

The HUGE LEAP is to assume that this line, which is incorporating a new blocking scheme, with no experience at running the scheme, and 2 starters and the top reserve being rookies WON'T improve. What in God's green earth would make you think they won't improve? Your argument here is not based in reality.

Clifton's better days are behind him. That's a position that will need to be addressed, but the strides that Moll has made with the LIMITED experience he has leads me to believe that he is tremendously talented and has OUTSTANDING potential. To look at this rookie's current situation and say that he's nothing more than a backup demonstrates ignorance of the process of becoming a good linman in this league. He's made HUGE strides in short order, and is likely to be a quality lineman in time.

3rd is the Rodgers scenario. He really has shown very little. Yes he did improve from last season to this, but the truth is he was so bad last season, that he had to improve. He may become a good QB but he will need some blue chip players around him and more important, an O line to give him time. IF he is'nt the answer, then TT will have set this program back 3 yrs.

Absolutely wrong. First of all, you assume that Rodgers sucks and is not the answer. You, nor anyone else, knows this to be the case. Secondly, if he is not the answer, there is NOTHING that says that this would set the program back 3 years. Look at the Baltimore Ravens this year... How about Tom Brady's rapid rise to NFL supremacy... What about all the teams that have Super Bowl rings with average qb's... You are grasping at every negative possibility - none of which have happened - and using these as "factual"support for your argument against TT.

4th is the problem that while we wait for the young guys to learn and get experience, the few good players we have like Harris, Green and Driver get older.

This happens WITH EVERY TEAM IN THE LEAGUE...hence, the importance of drafting solidly year in and year out and building greater depth on the team. There will be additional holes to fill, clearly. I have confidence they'll be filled.

The 5th is depth. Let's throw out history and assume TT finally has an awakening and does get a few blue chip guys. While he's building starters, we will have no depth and injuries happen.

There is no logic to this argument at all. What is it that would make you say we will have no depth, other than to throw out an illogical argument to support your beliefs? We have greater depth today than when TT arrived.

These are just a few examples and believe me, there are more. To believe we are even 2 seasons away from even being competitive is wishfull thinking. How long does it take MM to grow as a HC? His choice of DB coach is a very troubling sign as to his"instincts".

I haven't seen ANY "examples" that justify your position. I believe we are 1 season away from being competitive, and I have yet to hear an argument by you or any other TT basher that is legitimate in undermining this position.

You say MM sucks as a head coach. I disagree. He has shown me a lot in his short time here that makes me believe he'll be a good one. He insists on doing things the right way in practices, insists on personal accountability from every individual on the team, and he understands how to use the West Coast offense get production from his offense. When he's had talented and experienced people with which to work, he has coached them to record-breaking offensive production.

He's inexperienced as a head coach obviously, but I believe he has the intangibles that you look for in a leader.

I wish I could be as optimistic as some of you, but I think age has much to do with the futuristic view of this franchise. If your young and hav'nt lived through the 70's and 80's, you would have a much more optimistic view with nothing to compare the mistakes that TT has made with one's you've seen in the past. When you get older, time passes much more quickly and you don't want it wasted. TT has already wasted enough time, even if some of you don't see it.

The way you talk Packnut, you act as if you have NO IDEA or experience whatsoever in understanding that this is a complex process that takes time. You act as if there are silver bullet answers to every issue, and

Being 9-7 and getting beat in the first round of the playoffs in perpetuity is not the existence that I want. But that's what you will get when you follow the path that you espouse.

[The Shadow]

First win of the McCarthy era!
An important step in the process.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Looks better now.

[run pMc]

Of course TT is taking a long view approach. Of course that's the right thing to do. Of course it's painful, for fans and for the long-time warriors like Driver and Favre. The growing pains are worth it.

I think TT has a plan. Whether it's similar to the one outlined is unclear. But I wouldn't be surprised if it's close.

I think the defense may undergo some coaching changes. Not sure about M3 either, we'll see.