Linebacker play - Barnett the greater evil

[Bretsky]

I was at the game. What you might not be able to see is that the secondary looked like a Chinese fire drill with all the shifts that Martz had in there. Barnett was trying to get guys in the right spot. I saw every play your referring to Wist. I thought Barnett had a fair to good game. The play he got killed on was the dump off play in the flat. Still, if you watch a lot of other teams, you won't see many of them sending a lineman out to specifically block the MLB on a flare pass to a RB - typically, the RB is a dump off pass in the WCO. Martz has used the pulling lineman on that play more than other coordinators, ans he obviously was specifically game planning for Barnett. So you have a lineman dedicated to blocking Barnett. No matter how good your MLB is, if you have a lineman and a RB going after the guy, they will win that battle most of the time. And check again Wist on those plays to see how the scheme moved the corner and SLB out of there to isolate Barnett. Give Martz some credit - he's probably one of the best O coordinators in the NFL.

All three games have been the Chinese Fire Drill; the secondary looked very unprepared/chaotic against the Bears as well.

Unfortunately from the sounds of it things do not seem to be improving.

[wist43]

I'm not saying Popp is better than Barnett - Popp is what he is, and he can be an effective LB in the NFL if they use him properly. His strengths are filling the hole, holding the point, penetrating the backfield, and rushing the passer - for some unfathomable reason, the Packers think he's a cornerback.

As for Barnett, and I agree it's beating a dead horse, he's such a liability - it just jumps off the screen. Yes, he's around the ball - 10 yds down the field - and the reason it's 10 yds down the field is b/c he has no has no instincts for the game, is slow to react, takes poor angles, and is generally passive in all aspects of the game.

Rather than just shooting off unsubstantiated invectives, I've given specific examples and times in the game to go back and look at Barnett's performance.

[Bossman641]

Poppinga is still a linebacker though. You are so enamored with his abilities in the run game that you seem willing to completely disregard how poor he is in coverage.

I have no idea why they have him lining up on WR's. That is just poor scheming, unless his job is simply to bump the receiver and force him to go one way. Still, he has to be able to cover average TE's like Campbell.

Can Wist, or anyone else with a tape of the game, check out a specific play for me? It happened at the end of the 1st quarter, right before the TD bomb to Williams. The Lions had a 3rd and 1 and play actioned, Campbell snuck out to the left away from pursuit and ran a short route underneath, and there was nobody anywhere near him. The play went for like 25 yards. Can somebody with a copy of the game check out that play and try and figure out who was supposed to stay with the TE and what happened? Thanks

[wist43]

I see Barnett as aggressive, he's always close to the ball.

To me, he looks every bit as talented as Hawk, and a similar player.

I guess we have different definitions of the word "aggressive".

To me, an "aggressive" LB attacks the hole and stuffs the ball carrier w/in a yard or two either way of the LOS. An "aggressive" LB also diagnoses flares and screens quickly and gets up field to blow the play up before the linemen gets out front and the RB can cut accordingly. Barnett doesn't have the instincts to diagnose plays quickly enough to do that.

In both the running and passing game, Barnett tends to drift to get in front of the play as opposed to playing downhill and attacking the ball carrier. As a result, Barnett tends to get blocked too easily out in front of passes to the RB's in the flat, and he tends to give up yds between the tackles after contact. His patented "drag down" tackle technique doesn't help.

Hodge on the other hand is "aggressive" IMO. He attacks the LOS, diagnoses plays instantly (running plays at least), gets good penetration, and more often than not, blows up the ball carrier.

When's the last time anybody went "oooohhhh and aaaaaahhhhh" b/c Barnett blew up a RB in the hole. It doesn't happen.

Barnett is a very, very, very, passive player... he gets himself in front of plays, and in front of blockers, but that only serves to buy time until help arrives. Sometimes that's all that can be done on a given play, and containment might be the best that action, but Barnett plays like that every play - which is why he is continually "making plays" 5-10 yds down the field.

As I said, I've given some specific examples in this past game... go back and look at the tape.

[wist43]

Poppinga is still a linebacker though. You are so enamored with his abilities in the run game that you seem unwilling to completely disregard how poor he is in coverage.

I have no idea why they have him lining up on WR's. That is just poor scheming, unless his job is simply to bump the receiver and force him to go one way. Still, he has to be able to cover average TE's like Campbell.

Can Wist, or anyone else with a tape of the game, check out a specific play for me? It happened at the end of the 1st quarter, right before the TD bomb to Williams. The Lions had a 3rd and 1 and play actioned, Campbell snuck out to the left away from pursuit and ran a short route underneath, and there was nobody anywhere near him. The play went for like 25 yards. Can somebody with a copy of the game check out that play and try and figure out who was supposed to stay with the TE and what happened? Thanks

I know which play you're talking about... I just glossed over it b/c the defense was so out of position on the play that it was difficult to tell who had what responsibility. The coaching staff was completely unprepared for that play.

The coaching and scheme aren't doing a good job of making use of the talents of the individual players.

From what I've seen so far, Sanders appears to be in way over his head... and that makes evaluation of individual players difficult b/c of the overall confusion that reigns.

[Partial]

At the very least, I can respect this because you did a detailed tape analysis.

[mraynrand]

Just out of curiosity, Wist, how many times have you done the same analysis of the MLB on the other team? I spent some time last season or 2004, looking at what the other MLB was doing compared with Barnett - on tape - and also looking at MLBs in other live games. What I found was that a lot of other MLBs were getting caught in traffic and not getting to plays. Some other MLBs, especially those in the 3-4 (actually ILBs), looked better because they had help (ILBs in the 3-4 aren't asked to do what Barnett does of course). Barnett's weaknesses are false steps and a tendancy to play the position like a FS instead of a LB, but he really does get to runners and string a lot of plays out, where other MLBs don't get out of traffic, and don't get to the edges. In general, opposing offenses seem to game plan for him, like they do for Urlacher - they typically pull a guard (or a center in the case of Detroit) just to seal Barnett. In summary, I don't think the guy is a pro bowl talent, but he's better than maybe 1/3 of the guys playing his position.

[wist43]

Thanks Partial...

I know everybody hates my take on Barnett, but I haven't come by my opinion of Barnett without studying.

I don't mind debate and disagreement, what's frustrating is trying to debate with people who only watched the game live, and only remember the occassional good or bad play.

[Partial]

Thanks Partial...

I know everybody hates my take on Barnett, but I haven't come by my opinion of Barnett without studying.

I don't mind debate and disagreement, what's frustrating is trying to debate with people who only watched the game live, and only remember the occassional good or bad play.

I agree. I try to stay out of it since I don't have a vcr here at school. One element of barnett I feel you overlook is he has tremendous speed which:
a. allows him to compensate for taking a late/uninstinctive first step
b. teams gameplan away from him because of his speed

With Hodge in the middle, he may not even get to the runner on the screen despite a more sound first step.

[oregonpackfan]

Wist,

As the self-designated leader of the "Barnett-Is-The-Worst-Linebacker-To-Ever-Play-For-The-Packers" Camp, it is amazing how you scapegoat him for the Packers' defensive woes. If the Packers would just cut him or trade him to another team for a 7th round draft choice, the Packers will suddenly be the best defensive unit in the NFL.

Oh yeah, let's go over the catch phrases, your camp uses about Barnett. They include: "Takes poor angles," "Can't fight off blockers." "Makes few tackles behind the Line of Scrimmage," "Lacks instinct," "Lacks aggression," "Makes most of his tackles 7 yards beyond the Line of Scrimmage," Did I forget any?

Let's see:

1. Shall we get rid of the guy who has been the leading tackler for the team the past 3 years?

2. Shall we get rid of the guy who set the team record for tackles in a season?

3. Shall we get rid of the guy who is still on the learning curve for MLB in his fourth season because: a. he NEVER played MLB in college, b. has had 4 different defensive coordinators in his 4 years as a pro?

4. Shall we get ride of a guy who has tremendous quickness as a MLB?

To get rid of Barnett is a very poor recommendation, IMO.

OPF

[wist43]

Wist,

As the self-designated leader of the "Barnett-Is-The-Worst-Linebacker-To-Ever-Play-For-The-Packers" Camp, it is amazing how you scapegoat him for the Packers' defensive woes. If the Packers would just cut him or trade him to another team for a 7th round draft choice, the Packers will suddenly be the best defensive unit in the NFL.

Oh yeah, let's go over the catch phrases, your camp uses about Barnett. They include: "Takes poor angles," "Can't fight off blockers." "Makes few tackles behind the Line of Scrimmage," "Lacks instinct," "Lacks aggression," "Makes most of his tackles 7 yards beyond the Line of Scrimmage," Did I forget any?

OPF

Oregon, I think those "catch phrases" capture the essence of Nick Barnett beautifully.

[Homer Jay]

Are you honestly telling us you can determine how good a player is by watching and re watching the tv game tape? Half the time you can't even see the player you are trying to grade. Without seeing the coaches tapes it is awfully tough to know exactly what happened on any given play. We see the start of every play and the end of every play. Without seeing exactly what happens in between we are left to guess. I enjoy reading every one's opinions, but at least admit that we get about 1/2 the story from what we see on tv.

[Partial]

Are you honestly telling us you can determine how good a player is by watching and re watching the tv game tape? Half the time you can't even see the player you are trying to grade. Without seeing the coaches tapes it is awfully tough to know exactly what happened on any given play. We see the start of every play and the end of every play. Without seeing exactly what happens in between we are left to guess. I enjoy reading every one's opinions, but at least admit that we get about 1/2 the story from what we see on tv.

It sure would be nice to get footage like madden the video game. They tried that in the XFL though, and the fans did not like watching the game that way.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Are you honestly telling us you can determine how good a player is by watching and re watching the tv game tape? Half the time you can't even see the player you are trying to grade. Without seeing the coaches tapes it is awfully tough to know exactly what happened on any given play. We see the start of every play and the end of every play. Without seeing exactly what happens in between we are left to guess. I enjoy reading every one's opinions, but at least admit that we get about 1/2 the story from what we see on tv.

That was a shot at me--even though I often rewatch the broadcast on the NFL Channel. I don't think it takes a scout to see that Barnett is better than Poppinga. To suggest otherwise is absurd, IMHO.

[wist43]

Are you honestly telling us you can determine how good a player is by watching and re watching the tv game tape? Half the time you can't even see the player you are trying to grade. Without seeing the coaches tapes it is awfully tough to know exactly what happened on any given play. We see the start of every play and the end of every play. Without seeing exactly what happens in between we are left to guess. I enjoy reading every one's opinions, but at least admit that we get about 1/2 the story from what we see on tv.

You can get a good handle on the front seven, and OL play... You have a valid point if you're trying to evaluate DB's.

About the only thing you miss with the TV view wrt to evaluating LB's is what responsibilities they may have in underneath coverage and in passing lanes. On that level, an excuse could possibly be made for Barnett not getting out in the flat, but I really didn't see anything on tape that would support that... I took it into consideration when I was looking at Barnett.