Bob Sanders

[wist43]

Vince, saying the defense will improve doesn't exactly put you in Nostrodomus's company...

They can't get any worse.

Beyond that, doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results is insanity - rehiring Kurt Schottenheimer was insane... and the pass defense will be a dysfunctional mess as long as that idiot is the secondary coach.

[Harlan Huckleby]

rehiring Kurt Schottenheimer was insane... and the pass defense will be a dysfunctional mess as long as that idiot is the secondary coach.

Wist, I always dismiss your arguments about position coaches and scouting directors. Sorry, just a matter of policy - I don't believe fans have enough insight to make such an evaluation, too many variables.

[mraynrand]

rehiring Kurt Schottenheimer was insane... and the pass defense will be a dysfunctional mess as long as that idiot is the secondary coach.

Wist, I always dismiss your arguments about position coaches and scouting directors. Sorry, just a matter of policy - I don't believe fans have enough insight to make such an evaluation, too many variables.

What worries me is when I see the coaches arguing with each other after a blown assignment, and then NEVER talk to the players before they send them back on the field. That's what I think happened after the D yeilded that TD to Williams last Sunday. I don't think it made it on TV, but I got a good look at it from 40 rows up.

[Terry]

Beyond that, doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results is insanity - rehiring Kurt Schottenheimer was insane... and the pass defense will be a dysfunctional mess as long as that idiot is the secondary coach.

That's funny. Things have changed since I was there. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results used to fall under the "If at first you don't succeed, try, try again" principle.

[the_idle_threat]

Beyond that, doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results is insanity - rehiring Kurt Schottenheimer was insane... and the pass defense will be a dysfunctional mess as long as that idiot is the secondary coach.

That's funny. Things have changed since I was there. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results used to fall under the "If at first you don't succeed, try, try again" principle.

IMO, the difference depends on whether you are doing the same thing over and over again (insanity) or are trying different things each time (if at first you don't succeed ... ) in the effort to accomplish the result.

[Tarlam!]

Last night, I watched Bobby Jones, the DVD. His caddie said to him something like "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over, but expecting a different result each time".

[vince]

Last night, I watched Bobby Jones, the DVD. His caddie said to him something like "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over, but expecting a different result each time".

Insanity is expecting that any professional coach in the NFL, when faced with failure, will do the same thing over and over.

These first games provided ample opportunity for motivation and correction. We'll see who's right as the season progresses, but I think the secondary will be more and more effective as time goes on. Wist, you obviously don't.

There are some things you can teach, and some things you can't. The things that ail the Packers' secondary at this early stage of the season, IMO, are correctable.

In 2004, guys like Joey Thomas, Bawoh Jue, Ahmad Carroll (as a rookie no less), and Mark Roman saw significant action. These guys were seriously wet behind the ears, and/or just weren't very good. You can't give someone on-the-field experience in the film room, or teach them how to have the talent to succeed, which is why we saw little or no improvement in their performance over the course of the season.

Al Harris may be losing a step, but this year's secondary's primary problem thus far is poor communication and coordination. This is a partly a result of poor coaching IMO, but these are eminently correctable problems - even by Schottzie. As this group learns more about where each other will be and how they play, they'll become more effective.

Ineffective coaching will make it take longer, but Schottzie can't take this group's talent away from them. If they stay healthy, it'll ultimately rise up.

[red]

is there anyway we could bring back bates as a co-headcoach? or just an assistant head coach in charge of quality control?

just someone to make sure the team was fired up and had their heads out of their asses for the game. we could give him a big title and money

he would be like the second guy in charge of the entire team

[wist43]

Beyond that, doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results is insanity - rehiring Kurt Schottenheimer was insane... and the pass defense will be a dysfunctional mess as long as that idiot is the secondary coach.

That's funny. Things have changed since I was there. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results used to fall under the "If at first you don't succeed, try, try again" principle.

That doesn't mean you keep doing it the same way... Of course, everyone is familiar the story of Edison being confronted with failing to successfully construct a lightbulb after 2,000 tries - to which he replied that he had successfully found 2,000 ways how NOT to build a lightbulb.

I don't think Schottenheimer is smart enough, or clever enough, to view his failures in this way... so, "if at first you don't succeed..."

I'm sure Kurt scratches his head after every Packer defensive debacle and wonders "what went wrong, it should have worked... I'll try it again!!!"

[wist43]

rehiring Kurt Schottenheimer was insane... and the pass defense will be a dysfunctional mess as long as that idiot is the secondary coach.

Wist, I always dismiss your arguments about position coaches and scouting directors. Sorry, just a matter of policy - I don't believe fans have enough insight to make such an evaluation, too many variables.

HH, you must be the most docile of democratic subjects - blindly accepting mediocrity and stupidity... afterall, "they're the experts - who are we to presume to criticize???"

Perhaps I should henceforth chant mantra's of "prosperity thru greater taxation" as the "experts" in government tell me they need my money to champion the greater good... afterall, there are too many variables for a small minded plebian like myself, awash amongst the masses, to comprehend.

[Tarlam!]

That's BOMNF, Wisty, BOMNF!!!

[Fritz]

"He's can't axe coaches during the season without damaging his own reputation."

Maybe you can't axe them, but you can aks them what the f--- problem is. I do wonder if MM is putting any heat on Sh_ttenheimer to "fix" (or fiks) the troubles in the secondary. If communication is the problem, as the mantra currently suggests, it's time to talk, babies.

I too like the idea of bringing Bates back. Screw it. As a fan I don't have to worry about the message that gets sent to the rest of the coaches in the league, or worry about consistency on the staff. I can just say I liked the defense better when Barnett was the Master of Bates. So what the hell. Hire Bates back, shove Sander aside - let him be an assistant defensive aide, or fire him, or whatever - and then drop Sh-ttenheimer like a hot rock and get this defense fiksed.

Man, I love being a fan sometimes.

[MJZiggy]

rehiring Kurt Schottenheimer was insane... and the pass defense will be a dysfunctional mess as long as that idiot is the secondary coach.

Wist, I always dismiss your arguments about position coaches and scouting directors. Sorry, just a matter of policy - I don't believe fans have enough insight to make such an evaluation, too many variables.

HH, you must be the most docile of democratic subjects - blindly accepting mediocrity and stupidity... afterall, "they're the experts - who are we to presume to criticize???"

Perhaps I should henceforth chant mantra's of "prosperity thru greater taxation" as the "experts" in government tell me they need my money to champion the greater good... afterall, there are too many variables for a small minded plebian like myself, awash amongst the masses, to comprehend.

Do I smell a Plebian Rat?

[Harlan Huckleby]

rehiring Kurt Schottenheimer was insane... and the pass defense will be a dysfunctional mess as long as that idiot is the secondary coach.

Wist, I always dismiss your arguments about position coaches and scouting directors. Sorry, just a matter of policy - I don't believe fans have enough insight to make such an evaluation, too many variables.

HH, you must be the most docile of democratic subjects - blindly accepting mediocrity and stupidity... afterall, "they're the experts - who are we to presume to criticize???"

Perhaps I should henceforth chant mantra's of "prosperity thru greater taxation" as the "experts" in government tell me they need my money to champion the greater good... afterall, there are too many variables for a small minded plebian like myself, awash amongst the masses, to comprehend.

Well, funny that you see this is liberal/conservative terms.

I don't assume that the assistant coaches are any good. I doubt a fan's ability to isolate the quality of the position coaches from the quality of the players at the position, quality of players on rest of the defensive/offensive unit, the decisions of the coordinator, decisions of the head coaches, decisions of the GM.

Do you beleive that Larry Beightol deserved to be fired as offensive line coach last year? Or was that Sherman's fault?

I'll giv you this much, you are not lacking for bravado!