A Case Study in Rebuilding - From Very Close to Home

[vince]

And my point which you continue to ignore is that we'll never know. You say it couldn't be done and everyone is just supposed to believe you? For an optimist you seem to think that nothing could be done with Wahle and others. I don't know and I never stated that I did. All I ever said is that its your opinion that it could never be done.

I never made any claim that it could be done. What is the result? Your opinion versus my opinion. Both valid in my mind but apparently not in your mind. You threw out opinion as fact and I called you on it. That simple.

I do think that TT's biggest error was not finding a way to resign Wahle, but I'm not sure he could have. But you're saying that TT should have "retooled" and that he should have kept/signed more veterans. If you're prepared to criticize him, I assume you're prepared to offer specific alternative solutions that would have been better to support your position.

So far, you haven't. That's a cop out. In the end, the argument will come down to our opinion about the value of specific players for the money, but I would think you'd have some specific thoughts about what you would do differently...

I am fully in support of the direction this team is going. If the Packers don't turn the corner next year and reach the playoffs, then TT will have failed in his efforts, at least in my opinion. From my perspective, he's well on his way to getting the job done...

[Brainerd]

And my point which you continue to ignore is that we'll never know. You say it couldn't be done and everyone is just supposed to believe you? For an optimist you seem to think that nothing could be done with Wahle and others. I don't know and I never stated that I did. All I ever said is that its your opinion that it could never be done.

I never made any claim that it could be done. What is the result? Your opinion versus my opinion. Both valid in my mind but apparently not in your mind. You threw out opinion as fact and I called you on it. That simple.

I do think that TT's biggest error was not finding a way to resign Wahle, but I'm not sure he could have. But you're saying that TT should have "retooled" and that he should have kept/signed more veterans. If you're prepared to criticize him, I assume you're prepared to offer specific alternative solutions that would have been better to support your position.

So far, you haven't. That's a cop out. In the end, the argument will come down to our opinion about the value of specific players for the money, but I would think you'd have some specific thoughts about what you would do differently...

I am fully in support of the direction this team is going. If the Packers don't turn the corner next year and reach the playoffs, then TT will have failed in his efforts, at least in my opinion. From my perspective, he's well on his way to getting the job done...

Again, I'm not criticizing TT as much as I'm disagreeing with the thesis that rebuilding is necessary in today's NFL. That and what constitutes rebuilding. You used the bears and I in turn used the same Bears' facts you presented to form my contrary opinion. Its called discussion.

I see no copout from where I sit. The discussion was about rebuilding and the how the Bears got where they are today. I gave many examples. The sudden, seemingly indiscriminate, gutting of a team can cause unnecessary havoc destroying any semblance of team unity because no one ever knows what's going on.

The Bears didn't gut their team in one year. The Packers under TT have just this year alone turned over much of the roster. Last year's team was Sherman's team minus many of the stars TT couldn't resign. He didn't cut much dead-weight last year except for Hunt. In fact much of the dead-weight TT cut this year was the dead-weight his own self added last year.

Its a point, that's all. A point about rebuilding. Or TT's approach to rebuilding. And its nothing like the Bears as far as I can see.

All I care about is that the Packers find a way to get back to respectability and compete for the Superbowl. We disagree on how that can best take place.

[wist43]

Firstly, I would like to say that a lot of my comments of late are born out of frustration more than anything else. I don't like the direction of the team, I think the GM and coaching staff are very questionable, I hate the defensive scheme, and am skeptical that they can make the ZBS work...

Wist, why are you skeptical about the ZBS? I'd say it's coming along nicely after a slow start... As I stated above, I do think that a RB is a need position, but Noah Herron was running through some sizable holes and Morency started well. He has the skills for this scheme, but obviously, if you can't hang on to the ball, you can't play.

We all want to see the team win, but this year, what's more important is that we see the team continue to develop. I'm seeing that on both sides of the ball. Playoffs this year isn't part of the plan. That's for next year.

Vince,

I know the ZBS works very well in Denver and Atlanta, but I don't like it from a philosophical standpoint... My preference is for more of a smash mouth style with more pulling and counters. I don't like the idea that we can't just line up and run it down their throat.

The ZBS places a premium on smallish, athletic OL which I think leads to problems in pass protection and getting bull rushed by bigger DT's. Beyond that, smallish OL have to be almost perfect wrt to position and technique, whereas a bigger, stronger player can get away with less refined technique. There's simply no margin for error when a smaller, weaker player goes against a bigger, stronger player.

Beyond these concerns, I too hate that they let Wahle get out of town... For that matter, I regarded Wahle and Walker to be the Packers two best players, and in my view, TT all but ran them both out of town.

Those two moves put TT in my dog house... he's got a long way to go prove himself to me.

[vince]

Again, I'm not criticizing TT as much as I'm disagreeing with the thesis that rebuilding is necessary in today's NFL. That and what constitutes rebuilding. You used the bears and I in turn used the same Bears' facts you presented to form my contrary opinion. Its called discussion.

I see no copout from where I sit. The discussion was about rebuilding and the how the Bears got where they are today. I gave many examples. The sudden, seemingly indiscriminate, gutting of a team can cause unnecessary havoc destroying any semblance of team unity because no one ever knows what's going on.

The Bears didn't gut their team in one year. The Packers under TT have just this year alone turned over much of the roster. Last year's team was Sherman's team minus many of the stars TT couldn't resign. He didn't cut much dead-weight last year except for Hunt. In fact much of the dead-weight TT cut this year was the dead-weight his own self added last year.

Its a point, that's all. A point about rebuilding. Or TT's approach to rebuilding. And its nothing like the Bears as far as I can see.

All I care about is that the Packers find a way to get back to respectability and compete for the Superbowl. We disagree on how that can best take place.

Brainerd, we agree in the premise that teams SHOULDN'T have to rebuild. They should be able to retool. That does hold true - FOR TEAMS THAT HAVE MADE GOOD DECISIONS IN PREVIOUS YEARS.

By taking the position that the Packers were, in fact, in such a position, apparently, you've missed the whole point of me having to PROVE the team was in cap hell when TT took over.

"Retooling" was not an option, thanks to our previous GM's decisions. If you think it was, I am STILL WAITING for you to support that argument. Until you do, I am going to presume that you aren't prepared to do so, so I am going to move on to the next premise in which (I believe) you're wrong.

We AGREE that the best state that a franchise can put themselves in is to not HAVE to rebuild. The question (and the next part you have wrong, IMO) is: How must a franchise go about doing that?

There is a way to get to the point to where a team is in position to "retool" for extended periods of time, if not indefinitely.

The wrong way is to put your franchise in cap hell by overpaying underproducing free agents, resigning underperforming homegrown players, undermining the foundation of the team in order to stay "competitive" for a couple more years, and trading away draft picks to get the "one guy" that you think you MUST have, only to see that player not pan out to be the "sure thing" you thought he would be, the result of which is losing draft picks and wasting drafts by not infusing young talent onto the team year in and year out.

THIS IS WHAT MIKE SHERMAN, the GM, DID. IT DIDN"T WORK. It is the reason he was FIRED.

TT inherited a team in cap hell, with virtually no second and third year talent that should be coming into its own and providing the foundation of today's sqad. If you want to disagree with that premise, please provide some NAMES. We all know about the Javon Walker situation. Today, there are two names that I can give you. 1. Mike Wells, and 2. Nick Barnett. Who are the others? There should be 15 examples of this over a three or four year period. They're not here, and it isn't because TT wanted HIS guys. It's because they all SUCKED.

I prefer that a GM have a vision for the position in which he wants the franchise to be, and make decisive decisions to get the team there. TT is doing that, and I submit, he is on the brink of his vision beginning to come to fruition - quicker than other franchises have, such as the Bears, but that'll play itself out the rest of this year and into next year... off topic for your argument.

Anyway, this team had to "rebuild." There are no other two ways about it. Again, please support your argument that they didn't have to, if you can.

What TT is doing is putting the franchise in position to be able to "retool" year in and year out, by being prudent in free agency, first getting the cap situation under control, and then not mortgaging the future by overpaying for aging free agents that are looking for their one big payday, and coming out of drafts with 3, 4, and 5 starters, along with additional solid football players to add depth to the team.

THAT'S how you put the team which wasn't in position to "retool" in position to retool year in and year out.

Ted Thompson is doing that quickly, decisively, and I believe we will see through the rest of this year and into next, successfully.

You think he's going about it the wrong way. That he should have retooled instead, but you have come up with no examples or arguments to support the position that that was a realistically viable option for the state of this franchise.

[vince]

Vince,

I know the ZBS works very well in Denver and Atlanta, but I don't like it from a philosophical standpoint... My preference is for more of a smash mouth style with more pulling and counters. I don't like the idea that we can't just line up and run it down their throat.

The ZBS places a premium on smallish, athletic OL which I think leads to problems in pass protection and getting bull rushed by bigger DT's. Beyond that, smallish OL have to be almost perfect wrt to position and technique, whereas a bigger, stronger player can get away with less refined technique. There's simply no margin for error when a smaller, weaker player goes against a bigger, stronger player.

Beyond these concerns, I too hate that they let Wahle get out of town... For that matter, I regarded Wahle and Walker to be the Packers two best players, and in my view, TT all but ran them both out of town.

Those two moves put TT in my dog house... he's got a long way to go prove himself to me.

OK, so you don't like the ZBS philosophy. I like what leads to success. The combination of ZBS and the completion-oriented passing attack seem to me to be a very good combination. I can see your point about pass blocking and ZBS, which would indicate that the ZBS and vertical passing attack would make a very poor marriage.

You can't point to pass blocking being a problem for this team at this juncture... I don't believe it will be a problem in the future with the foundation of this line. Ironically, the bigger, experienced pass blocking vets have been guilty more than the rooks when it has come to pass blocking errors. So I'm not sure where you're coming from philosophically, but on the field, it appears as if it's beginning to work very well, and your concerns appear to be unfounded...

As far as Wahle and Walker are concerned, we agree on Wahle. I wanted to see him resigned, but again, his position, as documented above, was that he wanted a huge payday. Keeping his existing, extremely backloaded contract that Sherman had set up for him was not an option at the time. The Packers needed to cut $15 million and he was set to cost $11 million against the cap that year. I'm not math genius, but those numbers go in diametrically opposing directions. He HAD to be restructured or let go. Simple math there. Beyond that, matching the offer he got from Carolina was very close to being as bad as his existing contract. The only option was to let him go, or restructure A BUNCH of other people. As much as we would like to have seen that happen, that's NOT an easy thing to do. Who to restructure, and if you do, you are perpetuating the problems that got you to this point in the first place... Although we both wanted to see Wahle continue as a Packer, this was Mike Sherman's fault in giving Wahle such a backloaded contract in the first place.

I gotta go, but it's been documented ad nauseum about Walker situation. In a nutshell, that was Walker's selfish, immature attitude that screwed that situation up. Not TT.

[run pMc]

A few comments:
(1) nice post, Vince.
(2) There was no way Wahle would have resigned. Even ignoring that, GB would have had to be EXTREMELY creative in the contract. Either way, he wanted big $ and GB was right against the cap.
(3) Cutting 10 guys to keep one is not worth it.
(4) This team will improve. It takes time.
(5) Losing is not acceptable, but improvement is. Sometimes the best lessons are learned from mistakes.
(6) The defensive coaches gotta be worried about their jobs.
(7) Not a big fan of ZBS, but any new offensive system takes time for players to get down. MIN has a squad full of veterans and they can barely score.
(8) This offseason will say a lot about the players M3 & TT want to keep. Usually Year 2 is where the housecleaning gets beneficial...or head coaches fired.
(9) I stand by my 5-11 prediction this year; next year will be better. Having said that, I recall some posters saying all they could hope for this year was a competitive team that showed weekly improvement. I think we're getting that.
(10) With respect to TT's signings, some worked out & some haven't. The FA pickings are much slimmer now than 10 years ago; teams are smarter about managing the cap and signing their own players. So looking to FA doesn't work, unless you just look for role players and depth builders. That (along with drafting smart & great coaching) helped NE get to the Super Bowl.
Patience, people.

[wist43]

I wouldn't concede that they're getting the job done in pass protection at this point... the only reason they're keeping Favre upright is b/c they're helping inside with the TE, RB, or both. When they try to block one-on-one, it's a jail break.

I agree the line will improve, but they're never going to scare anyone...

As for Wahle, I don't think it would have been too difficult to get him signed... they carried a decent amount of change over from the '05 cap over to the '06 cap... that money could have been used for Wahle. Beyond that, they knew the CBA would get done, and increase the cap - by how much was anybody's guess - but they could have, and should have, given him guarenteed bonuses that would kick in in '06 and '07 when they knew they'd have plenty of cap room.

I know you see things optimistically... and I acknowledge there is at least something there to hang your hat on; but, in the two years since TT has been here, he has made numerous mistakes that have set the rebuilding process back... to say they'll be competitive by 2008 is to assume that nothing else goes wrong, that TT hits on most of his draft picks (and given the horrific track record of the scouting dept, that's a dubious propsition at best), that the young guys develop into front line starters, and that Rodgers is actually a player - that's an awful lot of assumptions that must fall into place.

As for now, Favre keeps them in games and gives them a chance - imagine this team w/o him???

[run pMc]

in the two years since TT has been here, he has made numerous mistakes that have set the rebuilding process back

And Sherman did what to help 'rebuild'? TT has done more in 2 years to upgrade GB's roster than Sherman did in his last 2.
I'm glad people can agree that we are rebuilding, even if TT won't say it outright.

Just because GB "could have, and should have" given Wahle guaranteed bonuses doesn't mean he would have taken the offer. A nice big fat signing bonus from a contender on the rise vs. money next year on a team in apparent decline (the defense was run by Slowik then).
I doubt Wahle regretted his decision last year.

Either way, he's gone and not coming back soon. wahle =

I see a lot of postings about how TT should offer contracts to this player or for that amount. It's fun to play armchair GM, but it ignores the possibility that the player might have unreasonable $ demands, might have a better offer, or just might not want to play here. Also, we don't always know about every offer GB makes. I doubt TT is sitting on his thumbs...even he can see this roster still needs work.

GB is rebuilding, and I think is headed in the right direction. It's painful to watch sometimes, but these kids are improving. M3 has to make sure he doesn't lose his players over the bye. I'm hoping things turn out like Dungy's first year in TB (1996?) - they were a bunch of laughingstock rookies (started out 1-8) the first half of the season, but finished 6-10 and were a tough out nobody wanted to play.

[wist43]

The subject of Wahle may be , but when you're evaluating TT it has to be revisited and taken into account.

As for the rebuilding process itself - at least most posters can now agree we're rebuilding. It's hard to take people seriously when they're throwing 12-4 predictions around, when the team is clearly more of a 4-12 team.

As Vince and others have pointed out, there are some bright spots, but it's going to take a long time to right this ship... all the longer b/c Favre will inevitably retire, and there will be more growing pains with Rodgers.

Looking ahead to 2008 or 2009 is a realistic timeline... if TT doesn't have the ship righted by then he should be shown the door, and the rebuilding process will have to begin all over again.

[MJZiggy]

I don't know if it would have to begin all over again, Wist. Even if the team doesn't perform well enough to make the playoffs by then, we'll still have some good talent to work with. When TT got here, the team was aging and had a number of players underperforming and it needed a gutting. In another three years, the players he's bringing in will all just be hitting their prime and we would likely just need a remodel as opposed to starting all over.

Actually, if this is M3's idea of knocking down a wall or two and adding a coat of paint, I'd hate to see what his idea of a rebuild would look like.

[wist43]

I don't know if it would have to begin all over again, Wist. Even if the team doesn't perform well enough to make the playoffs by then, we'll still have some good talent to work with. When TT got here, the team was aging and had a number of players underperforming and it needed a gutting. In another three years, the players he's bringing in will all just be hitting their prime and we would likely just need a remodel as opposed to starting all over.

Actually, if this is M3's idea of knocking down a wall or two and adding a coat of paint, I'd hate to see what his idea of a rebuild would look like.

The problem is that if they aren't very competetive by '08-09 TT and M3 are likely out the door... then you're looking at a new GM and coach. Who will likely have different philosphies and schemes.

And since the OL is being built for a ZBS, unless the new coaching staff keeps the scheme - just about all of those OL would be either useless or substandard. One thing is for sure, they'll be undersized.

And then defensively, if you bring in a new DC, you're definitely looking at a new scheme. About the only player you can say for sure will still be on that defense would be Hawk.

Of course it matters not one wit to look that far ahead - just playing the IF game.

Hopefully TT and M3 succeed, b/c IF they don't - we could be looking at 2010-1011 for a return to respectability.

As the "Kool-Aiders" have been pointing out, and I grudgingly agree to some extent, there are some rays of hope poking through - so hopefully we never get to "Rebuild #2".

[woodbuck27]

" "I am fully in support of the direction this team is going. If the Packers don't turn the corner next year and reach the playoffs, then TT will have failed in his efforts, at least in my opinion. I am fully in support of the direction this team is going. If the Packers don't turn the corner next year and reach the playoffs, then TT will have failed in his efforts, at least in my opinion. From my perspective, he's well on his way to getting the job done..." Vince

OK ...I'm checking in.

The " monster of the midway " not coming down on you Vince, as I do respect you, but I have no respect for OUR GM Ted Thompson with all he's NOT in my view.

Now... to begin Vince:

" From my perspective, he's well on his way to getting the job done..." Vince

Question:

a) What support can you possibly lend to that optimism?

That Ted Thompson is well on his way to getting "the Packers" to a playoff position (and Vince,you say next season) or otherwise in your words Vince:

but just a moment, first...

" If the Packers don't turn the corner next year and reach the playoffs, then TT will have failed in his efforts " Vince

b) May we gather from your statement above Vince?

That no playoff position in 2007 predicates that you will deem that Ted Thompson is a failure as OUR GM, if that's the case or obvious sometime in the 2007 season ?

So leaping ahead, or gathering that your response to question b) will be in the affirmative.

Your window of assessing Ted Thompson as OUR GM is three seasons, or 2005-07.

Before you respond to question a)

Let's just review his Record as OUR GM Vince.

1. We are still debating on this board "the fact or not", that Ted Thompson could "in reality" have restructured Players Contracts to enable/ensure Mike Wahle still being a Packer.

Now... *** given that Ted Thompson allowed Rivera and Sharper to walk and then extended HC Mike Sherman ( a highly contentious move, given that he set him up for a miserable season and then turned around and used Mike Sheman as a scapegoat as he FIRED Mike Sherman.

( Gag reflex !! )

but no less...

2. Vince? Couldn't the money returned to the kitty *** there certainly have assisted in retaining Wahle?

A thought here Vince.

We won't go into, other CAP money that was available or could have been made available to ensure resigning Mike Wahle.

For example.

We won't consider "the fact"... that Brett Favre has in his past, and likely would have restructure his personal Contract (again), to ensure such an important player as Mike Wahle obviously was/would be for his success, and as a result was a must FA retention for OUR team for 2005 and beyond.

Then again. We won't open up "an old can of worms" and revisit that when Ted Thompson was hired as OUR GM.

That Brett Favre and several other Packers were not in the plans for OUR future, as that would be highly speculative. Especially given the way that Brett Favre is currently performing, as one of not even a handful playmakers.

Let's get past 2005, and go straight to this season including Ted Thompson's Off Season moves.

Well I believe when we speculate on the wonders of Ted Thompson as a Drafting Guru, we have to consider his record thus far in Green Bay.

I'm calling his 2005 Draft a miserable failure as he took a QB in round one that has demonstrated (still) nothing to me, to hardly give me any comfort, that he's even close to being anyone's successor, more so Brett Favre's. We had too much need on OUR team to assist Brett Favre in improving on OUR efforts in 2004, a 10-6 season... to waste a #1 Draft pick on a QB that was falling to us. Oh how very fortunate we were. Right !!

We had other needs than a backup to Brett Favre... as we are talking Brett Favre. Come On Ted Thompson. That was your first and most revealing error as OUR GM

Followed by questionable picks thereafter in the Draft in 2005.

Oh, we may argue that we have one useful starter fr. the 2005 Draft in Safety Nick Collins, but what's with him to date in 2006?

A sophomore jinx?

It well could be that ( and arguably in the affirmative) that Ted Thompson's Draft in 2005 was a complete disaster.

At BEST only two players may be on that Super Bowl team that YOU maintain Vince... that Ted Thompson may build and that you'll support him as long as we make the playoffs in 2007. mmmmm

Based on what,Vince?

Based on what, other than pure and unsupported speculation?

We are not "the Chicago Bears" and Ted Thompson isn't Lovie Smith, Vince.

So I maintain that we can't speculate on the success of next season's Draft as yet, even if the players chosen in 2006's Draft appear to be keepers.

Yet, lets go to what we are seeing there.

AJ Hawk. He's LOST in the strength department on the inside rush. AJ Hawk is being manhandled. He isn't strong enough to rush inside and has to upgrade his strength to be as we hoped he'd be at a PRO BOWL Level in three seasons time.

G/T... or is it GT/G Darryn Colledge is about as mobile as Quasi Modo. Now the talk is that he has to play in his natural position or LT, " to really shine " and that assumes that Chad Clifton is about done.

Suddenly, with the new and improved ZBS the Ted Thompson and Co.'s almost gurantee to us, that the ZBS will be "just it"; we are witnessing the self destruction of formerly reliable Tackles Clifton, and easily OUR best Offensive Lineman last season...Mark Tauscher.

Geee before Ted Thompson Clifton and Tauscher were solid.

Ohhh ! It's the ZBS...I see.

I like what Spitz brings to us at the guard position, to date.

I love what WR Greg Jennings brings to us. Greg Jennings plays BIG at WR. He could even be assessed as very close to being OUR #1 WR.

Tony Moll.. NO! NOT HAPPENING !

Tyrone Culver? Maybe him or Marviel Underwood (On IR and out for the season and possibly a productive choice for TT in the 2005 draft) will team up with Nick Collins **, once he gets over his sophomore jinx..or maybe that isn't an NFL thing, just NHL?

** Later on that ** this post... see Marquand Manuel.

Will Blackmon. I pray to GOD this player is all I believe he could be as we are screwed at CB now, and that won't improve as long as Ted Thompson and Mike McCarthy procrastinate on making a coaching change to upgrade OUR Secondary... instead of the, well procrastination ,and scapegoating with a cherry on top approach, they have adopted to date...

again ...

another GAG REFLEX !

We had (what... 12 picks in the 2006 Draft ?) because Ted had (picks #36 and #37 was it ?) and elected in his way... to spend quality picks... for numbers of less quality players... because he gutted OUR team or because he felt "he was blessed with Good Luck" in his life??

I would compare that to the concientious landlord that invests money in tidy property that he/she has pride in, to rent to people who will expect decent living conditions... as opposed to the Slum landlord.

Packer GM Ted Thompson is like "the Slum Landlord".

Let's move away from TT's expertise...LOL. The main feature of his secret plan that will restore "the Packers" to GLORY or the DRAFT.

Now ,I will certainly agree. That his strongest suit, is his ability (or poster's here's perceived ability), that TT's some outstanding Guru of "the DRAFT".

Excuse me but...

Anther difficult to control...GAG REFLEX.

How can we have a great ability to draft, when OUR Scouting Dept. can't even advise Ted Thompson competently on talent available in Free Agency?

How many FA's still with us from 2005?

Did Ted take it down on his Scouting Dept?

Nope. Ted's loyal to his boys...but the Packer players are today's or tomorrow's wash water.

Too many reasons for Ted Thompson to make huge changes in OUR Scouting Dept. after 2005 and he does what?

That's correct. NOTHING.

Why's that Packer fans? Ever consider that Ted Thompson is nothing more than a puppet.That he is being shoved / pushed... little more than the silly puddy that he resembles?

Why can't Ted Thompson evaluate talent and be realistic in such evaluation for OUR immediate and future success?

The FA's from 2005...ALL Busts.

IMO and I include DT Ryan Pickett who has looked less than impressive compared to the Mike Sherman Packers... whooo ! whooo ! on OUR DL. The FA acquisition's (new to the team) have all been terrible.

CB Charles Woodson is a bust.

His number always seems to be on the ground instead of making plays and defending pass's. This stupid signing concerning the over the TOP inflated cost to OUR Cap (even for one disasterous season at $10 Million) makes no sense to me.

Excuse me while I try to control my...

GAG Reflex !!

Marquand Manuel = another BUST !!

Way to go Ted Thompson... way to show us consistency.

I'm stopping here as my stomach can't handle anymore, Vince.

Good luck in helping those of us that see "just the TRUTH'" about Ted Thompson, and expect him to be stripped of his no POWER no ability or competence to do otherwise..... than take OUR Team to NFL HELL.

You have confidence in Ted Thompson though, Ehh Vince.

We are 5W - 16L since he became OUR GM.

He is devious as hell... a DAM lier.

He's false in his actions. Wanting us to believe that his hatchet attacks hurt him so. He's just plain n' simple ...

False...a pure counterfeit. A lousy choice as OUR GM.

No backbone to even stand behind his OWN incompetent moves, with solid resolve and conviction, based in... " this is what had to be done because it was correct to do".

He's absolutely false, absolutely weak, absolutely wishy washy.

Ted Thompson done zero for us but harm us to date and horribly so.

Ted Thompson in his incompetence. DAM near was successful in driving Brett Favre away.

As a result of that deceit, and what other NFL players and media experts see in Green Bay; I believe will not support us getting the quality players we need in Free Agency.

We are presently 1- 4 this season and 5 - 16 since Ted Thompson; and you are going to give him your vote of confidence till sometime in 2007, and only withdraw that support if we fail to make the playoffs?

Vince:

A prediction.

YOU Sir ...will be withdrawing your support of Ted Thompson sometime next season.

[vince]

Thanks for checking in Woody. I look forward to engaging you in this debate about our GM. I respect your opinion and integrity on this board, and while we clearly disagree on the value of our GM, we do agree that our goal is to bring success to Packerland.

I will tackle your lengthy response in multiple posts. Here's hoping PR has ample server capacity to handle this one... It'll be a doozy. I'll be back Woody. Hang in there.

[Rastak]

Thanks for checking in Woody. I look forward to engaging you in this debate about our GM. I respect your opinion and integrity on this board, and while we clearly disagree on the value of our GM, we do agree that our goal is to bring success to Packerland.

I will tackle your lengthy response in multiple posts. Here's hoping PR has ample server capacity to handle this one... It'll be a doozy. I'll be back Woody. Hang in there.

Maybe you could write it offline during the night and submit it tomorrow?

Perhaps you could release it in installments over the bye week?


Just some ideas......

[BooHoo]

TT can only end up as a hero or a zero. Making so many changes in his short stay so far he will either prove his great ability to lead this team or will prove that he was the worst GM in pack history. I am hoping for the former. I do not want to re-live the 1970's.