McCarthy on the WR's

[Fritz]

"More if you factor in goofs like Coston."

Okay, I'm overly optimistic to several people here, but I"m not ready to write off Coston until next training camp. Wahle took two years, and people even griped about him through half his third year (he got moved around, I believe, like Coston). I"m not saying the guy's going to be great, but I'm not ready to write him off.

And as for the wide receiver situation, woeful is the day that Packer fans re-cast Antonio Chatman as a significant upgrade at the #3 wide receiver spot. Is he worth a spot as strictly your #3 wide receiver? Cuz for me, at least, I don't want to see him back there returning punts, because he didn't. He either made fair catches or got tackled after a one yard "return."

[Patler]

So, make a trade....yea, I know they are rare but they happen....get someones 3rd reciever so you at least have something. Maybe Jennings and Driver will be enough, they are both pretty good. Time will tell.

I think this is nearly impossible, at a reasonable cost to the team. I think most wide-receivers are way, way over-valued. Teams who have a decent one under contract, who they are willing to part with, seem to want too much. Look at all the rumors surrounding Ferguson and the Eagles a couple years ago. It sounded like that was a deal that could have been made, but GB wanted too much.

The only "deals" out there for receivers seem to be for the disgruntled ones, like Walker, etc., and then you usually have to be willing to commit to a big new contract for them. I think teams pay way too much in contracts with receivers, too, but that's another issue.

Backup receivers usualy come as "finds" in the draft, or reclaimations of guys who were high picks and never lived up to it. That's where I thought Gardner might fit in, but he didn't. Rison was sort of that. Terry Glenn, somewhat, too. Not quite what was hoped for him originally, but a contributing receiver nonetheless even as a starter. Glenn, Rison and even Gardner had each put together very good seasons in the past, but had declined or at least shown inconsistency causing previous teams to tire of them.

I can't think of an available receiver with a productive past that could be brought in now. Can anyone?

[Patler]

"More if you factor in goofs like Coston."

And as for the wide receiver situation, woeful is the day that Packer fans re-cast Antonio Chatman as a significant upgrade at the #3 wide receiver spot. Is he worth a spot as strictly your #3 wide receiver? Cuz for me, at least, I don't want to see him back there returning punts, because he didn't. He either made fair catches or got tackled after a one yard "return."

Chatman ensured that he would not be back in a game toward the end of last year. I commented on it at the time. All season he caught passes and dove to the dirt with tacklers around. However, I can't remenber which game it was, but on a third down late in the game, he made a reception a couple yards shy of the first down, with no defender close, dove to the ground and curled into a fetal position until a defender came up and touched him down. It was fourth down. I said at the time he wouldn't be back.

[Sparkey]

Lets get someone's 3rd receiver for what ? ? Then he can sit around for four weeks learning the system and terminlogy. Then another two to three weeks getting comfortable with the audible calls and developing some chemistry with Favre, but OOPS The season is over. Good thing we traded the 4th round pick for a guy we wont need next year.

Since we are at it. Lets release Jennings since most of the people in here bitching about Thompson were also crying that he passed on Chad Jackson to draft Colledge and then Jennings later on.

Wow, had Thompson done what so many on this board yelled for, We'd have Chad Jackson sitting on the bench as our number 3, behind Driver and Ferguson and wouldn't have Colledge at LG since he was a Tackle. Oops, Hodge would probably have not been drafted since we would have signed Arrington and then wouldn't have woodson at CB so Carroll would still be on the team starting and getting burned and we would have to play someone at PR.

That team sounds pretty bad...Good thing we have Thompson as our GM.

BTW, not directing this at any one person. Just fed up with all the bitching and complaining. So many people are just in this fantasy land where they think one or two players would make the Packers a play-off contender. Green Bay got OLD FAST and there were no young players around to fill the void. In hindsight, TT should have canned Sherman right away. Then the team would be a year ahead of where it is right now.

I would also like too ad that the $$$ we supposedly have, will probably be used to extend some of your younger up and coming players. There by absorbing some of the bonus this year so that future years are not as heavy.

Barnett, Wells, & Green come too mind as guys that they might want to extend, depending on how the rest of the year goes.

[Fritz]

"More if you factor in goofs like Coston."

And as for the wide receiver situation, woeful is the day that Packer fans re-cast Antonio Chatman as a significant upgrade at the #3 wide receiver spot. Is he worth a spot as strictly your #3 wide receiver? Cuz for me, at least, I don't want to see him back there returning punts, because he didn't. He either made fair catches or got tackled after a one yard "return."

Chatman ensured that he would not be back in a game toward the end of last year. I commented on it at the time. All season he caught passes and dove to the dirt with tacklers around. However, I can't remenber which game it was, but on a third down late in the game, he made a reception a couple yards shy of the first down, with no defender close, dove to the ground and curled into a fetal position until a defender came up and touched him down. It was fourth down. I said at the time he wouldn't be back.

Thanks, Patler. I did not see that play nor your comment on Chatman. Like I said, it's a strange and perhaps sad day in Packerville when history gets revised so that Chatman becomes someone's wish. My sense was the guy was an okay receiver - a little short as a target, no YAC, but he hung on to the ball - and a non-factor as a returner. I'd just as soon see if Francies or Martin can do better before handing it over to a vet who's not moving the team forward.

[GBRulz]

Patler, I admit, I don't have the knowledge like you do, when it comes to knowing other WR's who might be available to come in. But my gosh, you can't tell me that there are other WR's who have been cut by their teams for whatever reason, that are now sitting without a job. Why not bring them in for a look? Let them get to know the offense, it certainly can't hurt and it's not like we don't have money to sign some cheap street FA's.

[the_idle_threat]

TT needs to stop thinking OUTSIDE THE BUN and bringing in people like Taco and get some vet talent in here.

Problem is ... Taco IS the level of vet talent that is available at this time. Taco spent a couple years with Seattle before being released before last season.

All you folks who are griping and second-guessing TT are avoiding Patler's excellent question: If you believe you know better than TT on how to stock the WR position, then WHO do you propose is available for him to pick up, in terms of veteran talent? You can't say "I dunno ... but he oughtta know, cuz it's his job," because your position is that you know his job better than he knows it himself.

At this point in the season, the only available veterans are guys who could not crack the 5th receiver spot on other teams. That is outside-the-bun talent.

[Patler]

Patler, I admit, I don't have the knowledge like you do, when it comes to knowing other WR's who might be available to come in. But my gosh, you can't tell me that there are other WR's who have been cut by their teams for whatever reason, that are now sitting without a job. Why not bring them in for a look? Let them get to know the offense, it certainly can't hurt and it's not like we don't have money to sign some cheap street FA's.

I think that is what the two guys on the practice squad were for. They are the available guys the team apparently has interest in, and obviously have more familiarity with what is going on than anyone else off the street. I find it interesting that after signing Francies to the regular roster, they brought in another receiver for the practice squad, to begin working with him as well.

To bring anyone else in for more than a one day tryout last week would have required that someone be released from the roster. Robinson wasn't suspended until yesterday, and they thought it would be at least several weeks yet before that would happen. They still don't know how long Ferguson will be out. With injuries at linebacker and DB, it would have been difficult to release someone last week just to start working with a receiver who won't be a big contributor anyway.

[vince]

Re: WR

No matter what Chicken Little says, the sky isn't falling people. This doesn't change the complexity of this team. As Patler (the voice of reason) has said, we're no worse off for this. We're talking about #3 and #4 receivers here, not Jerry Rice in his prime.

What have Fergie and Robinson done this year? One, maybe two nice catches apiece?

Is it possible that the Packers believe that Martin has the potential to be a good one, and want to give him an opportunity to further develop and display his talents on the field? COULD THAT BE THE PLAN?

No, TT and MM must not have a plan, since it doesn't correspond with your conception of what the plan should be.

The doomsdayers will seemingly hate it if we all find that Martin can actually be a productive receiver in this league. And if he sucks, well, then we know he sucks and can move on, thereby improving the team for the future. It's not like he's going to cost us a playoff spot.

Give these kids a chance this year.

vince- this post really stunned me cause your better than this. Making up lame excuses for TT's lack of depth at WR is unbelievable. To say that a 2 TE set with a FB is just as good as a 3 or 4 WR set does'nt make any sense. If this was the case, than every NFL team would go to it. Having 3 and 4 WR sets on 3rd and long is a must. Not only for the passing game, but the obvious benefit of spreading out the D in order to run on 1st or 2nd down. A 2 TE set packs 7 or 8 in the box and you can't run consistently against that.

I understand those of you who defend TT, but good Lord, at least use some common sense! Chatman on 3rd down is a helluva lot better than Martin or some practice squad guy but TT in his infinite wisdom (insert sarcasm) signs a guy that EVERYONE knew was gonna be suspended. It's just another in a long line of examples where TT makes irrational moves without looking ahead to all the possible scenarios.

Sorry I'm late getting back into the mix here. I'm only saying that we have had very little production from our #3 and #4 receivers this year thus far, as does almost every team in the league. That level of prodoction will probably continue - WHICH DOESN'T CHANGE THE COMPLEXITY OF THE OFFENSE.

If another WR goes down, then we obviously are in a different situation, but if ANY team has 2 of their top 4 go down with injury, they're going to be turning to the scrap heap for help.

Additionally, going into the year, Robinson wasn't even on the roster, and most of us would not have lost any sleep if Fergie would have been cut outright in the first place.

[Tony Oday]

I think with the given that most of us want Fraud cut is that TT would sign something to replace him even a bust is better than him! But what the hell more catches for Jennigs and Driver! Im sure Jennigns will want a new contract next year anyway...

[FritzDontBlitz]

TT needs to stop thinking OUTSIDE THE BUN and bringing in people like Taco and get some vet talent in here.

Problem is ... Taco IS the level of vet talent that is available at this time. Taco spent a couple years with Seattle before being released before last season.

All you folks who are griping and second-guessing TT are avoiding Patler's excellent question: If you believe you know better than TT on how to stock the WR position, then WHO do you propose is available for him to pick up, in terms of veteran talent? You can't say "I dunno ... but he oughtta know, cuz it's his job," because your position is that you know his job better than he knows it himself.

At this point in the season, the only available veterans are guys who could not crack the 5th receiver spot on other teams. That is outside-the-bun talent.

that may be true, but when you really don't have a reliable THIRD receiver yet you can't afford to be turning up your nose at whatever's available out there. it makes no difference if they couldn't hack it as the 5th wideout on another team, those other teams had more receivers than they needed - green bay doesn't even have enough to fill out a roster. the packers need receivers and they need them NOW. it doesn't hurt to bring them all in for at least a look, you may find a surprise to help you for at least a week or two. that was one of the hallmarks of ron wolf's early tenure in green bay: he would bring in players of any calibre to patch up his roster every week to keep the team going. tt needs to take after his mentor in this area because after two years his efforts at the wideout position have been laughable at best...

[FritzDontBlitz]

btw, as i mentioned in another thread i'm glad they brought punky brewster back. i think he'll be the next breakout player. he would have probably made the final cut had he not fumbled a punt in the last exhibition game.

[KYPack]

Re: WR

[quote="vince"]

No matter what Chicken Little says, the sky isn't falling people. This doesn't change the complexity of this team. As Patler (the voice of reason) has said, we're no worse off for this. We're talking about #3 and #4 receivers here, not Jerry Rice in his prime.

What have Fergie and Robinson done this year? One, maybe two nice catches apiece?

Is it possible that the Packers believe that Martin has the potential to be a good one, and want to give him an opportunity to further develop and display his talents on the field? COULD THAT BE THE PLAN?

No, TT and MM must not have a plan, since it doesn't correspond with your conception of what the plan should be.

The doomsdayers will seemingly hate it if we all find that Martin can actually be a productive receiver in this league. And if he sucks, well, then we know he sucks and can move on, thereby improving the team for the future. It's not like he's going to cost us a playoff spot.

Give these kids a chance this year.

vince- this post really stunned me cause your better than this. Making up lame excuses for TT's lack of depth at WR is unbelievable. To say that a 2 TE set with a FB is just as good as a 3 or 4 WR set does'nt make any sense. If this was the case, than every NFL team would go to it. Having 3 and 4 WR sets on 3rd and long is a must. Not only for the passing game, but the obvious benefit of spreading out the D in order to run on 1st or 2nd down. A 2 TE set packs 7 or 8 in the box and you can't run consistently against that.

I understand those of you who defend TT, but good Lord, at least use some common sense!

(snippage.)

Well Vince, glad to see you came out here to Rock N, Roll.

As some have said, you are totally full of it.

You called me Chicken Little.

That's yer first error.

I am El Gallo Grande. (ask Mad)

There is no way in hell that we should have the roster mix that we find ourselves in. 4 TE's. 4 (maybe 5) rookie DB's.

4 WR's, 3 rookies.

But according to Vince, all is well, and anybody who has a problem with that is "doomsdayer".

Yeah, well that's fine. And you are full of it.

Are you trying to tell me that the best option for a roster addition is a kid from the practice squad?

A kid like Chris Francies who caught 44 passes for 774 yards and five TDs in 2005 to earn third-team All-Conference USA honors?

Yeah well, I'm here to tell you you are dead nuts wrong!

You think Brett is gonna trust a kid from El Paso who's never caught a pass in the league?

That Brett Favre is gonna even throw this kid a ball?

I think you are 100% wrong.

As far as your "complexity" comment, what do you mean?. The Pack is running the most basic pass offense in the league. The loss of Robinson hurts us from a personnel standpoint. The loss of a WR can't hurt us from a complexity aspect, we are too basic for that to affect us,

We need players, not plays and the chance that either of these kids can play in the league is remote.

In most cases, you don't know what you are talking about, so I don't know what you are talking about.

Patler and I have argued many times.

He's been right, and I've been wrong.

I've been right and he's been wrong.

You?

You seem like a cheerleader type to me.

[Patler]

Re: WR

There is no way in hell that we should have the roster mix that we find ourselves in. 4 TE's. 4 (maybe 5) rookie DB's.

4 WR's, 3 rookies.


You think Brett is gonna trust a kid from El Paso who's never caught a pass in the league?

That Brett Favre is gonna even throw this kid a ball?

I sure won't say that I think a team that is almost half first and second year players is a good thing. However, under the circumstances it doesn't bother me. My reasoning is simple. It may be the best alternative this year.

Other than Wahle and Walker, no veteran who has left is someone I really wish they still had. Rivera and Sharper, maybe. But not at the price. I have tried to analyze the cap situation as of April 2005 every way that I can. The only way to keep Wahle was for him to agree to a very team favorable deal. He had done that once already and wasn't about to do it again. The 2005 cap situation made redoing Walker's contract similarly unreasonable at the time. Threeafter, he was never going to return. Wahle and Walker are gone not by choice but by circumstances. It happens.

All the other departed vets offered nothing but mediocrity. At this point you might as well look at as many new players as you can, to try and build a base for the roster 3 and 4 years from now.

Will Favre throw to Francies? Of course he will. He completed passes and or threw to anyone they stuck out there last year, and he will again this year. He always has and always will.

[Bretsky]

"I can't think of an available receiver with a productive past that could be brought in now. Can anyone?"

These are certainly stretches, but Tyrone Calico.....Scottie Vines......Charles Rodgers........

no gamebreakers, but guys who might be our #3 WR at this point.