McCarthy on the WR's

[Bretsky]

LOL

Nice work Vince. I'm gonna miss Packnut.

Yes, nice work...but heck I don't want to shut up Packnut. He adds spice to the forum and does have strong views. Some agree partially with mine but he's much more extreme. And there is still a chance TT falls hard on his face and he's right in the end.

The one thing I'd question about Vince's responses was the common sense portions at the end. I'd just add this.

If TT valued Javon Walker and truly wanted to keep him around, he should have went about things differently. The company line isn't always the right answer in today's day and age. Sometimes if you value a player you can step outside the box and go out of your way to massage an ego. And I'm not saying give him the deal as soon as he's whining. But make an effort to keep peace in hopes that a long term relationship can be salvaged. It's tough to lose a player of this high caliber and TT made some mistakes in how he handles Javon Walker.

I think if TT read my paragraph above he might agree.


B

[Scott Campbell]

True. Nobody from the Packer Nation liked how this turned out. Except maybe Greg Jennings fans.

[vince]

LOL

Nice work Vince. I'm gonna miss Packnut.

Yes, nice work...but heck I don't want to shut up Packnut. He adds spice to the forum and does have strong views. Some agree partially with mine but he's much more extreme. And there is still a chance TT falls hard on his face and he's right in the end.

The one thing I'd question about Vince's responses was the common sense portions at the end. I'd just add this.

If TT valued Javon Walker and truly wanted to keep him around, he should have went about things differently. The company line isn't always the right answer in today's day and age. Sometimes if you value a player you can step outside the box and go out of your way to massage an ego. And I'm not saying give him the deal as soon as he's whining. But make an effort to keep peace in hopes that a long term relationship can be salvaged. It's tough to lose a player of this high caliber and TT made some mistakes in how he handles Javon Walker.

I think if TT read my paragraph above he might agree.


B

I do agree with some of that B, but never in the history of the NFL (to my knowledge) has a team renegotiated a contract with 3 years remaining on it - as Walker insisted on when he boycotted training camp prior to the '05 season. It didn't happen to Jim Brown, Walter Payton, Jerry Rice - NOONE. Walker's good, but he's not the best player in the history of the league - not yet anyway as far as I can tell.

Renegotiating a contract with 2 years left on it is absolutely unheard of, and renegotiating a contract with 1 year left on it is extremely rare. There are too many unknowns with the salary cap and injuries for that to occur - especially with a lot of unfulfilled years left on a previous agreement...

My opinion is that if he would have taken a different tact himself, the results would have been MUCH different. The Packers renegotiated Driver's contract one year left on his previous agreement - because he acted in good faith throughout. If Walker would have acted in good faith, and if he wouldn't have had a major knee injury, there is no doubt in my mind that the Packers would have renegotiated his contract when he had one year left on it.

Boycotting the team and assassinating the team in public to get what you want is an idiotic way to approach things. Nothing good can result from it - unless you absolutely want to burn that bridge and destruct the team with your presence, which Walker obviously did.

[Rastak]

[quote="vince"]
Renegotiating a contract with 2 years left on it is absolutely unheard of, and renegotiating a contract with 1 year left on it is extremely rare. quote]


Vince, unheard of? No way. Didn't Richard Seymour either last year or this year redo his deal with two years left? How many years did Harris and Driver have left when they got their deals? Extremely rare on one year deals? Not at all, it actually somewhat common. 2 year deals are rare but hardly unheard of.

[vince]

[quote="Rastak"]

Renegotiating a contract with 2 years left on it is absolutely unheard of, and renegotiating a contract with 1 year left on it is extremely rare. quote]


Vince, unheard of? No way. Didn't Richard Seymour either last year or this year redo his deal with two years left? How many years did Harris and Driver have left when they got their deals? Extremely rare on one year deals? Not at all, it actually somewhat common. 2 year deals are rare but hardly unheard of.

Semantics Ras. Of course it happens, but I'd guess that less than 10% of the players in the NFL renegotiate their contracts prior to the period where its expiration is imminent. That's just a guess, but if that's close, I consider that rare. 90% of the time, it doesn't happen.

[Rastak]

[quote="vince"]

Renegotiating a contract with 2 years left on it is absolutely unheard of, and renegotiating a contract with 1 year left on it is extremely rare. quote]


Vince, unheard of? No way. Didn't Richard Seymour either last year or this year redo his deal with two years left? How many years did Harris and Driver have left when they got their deals? Extremely rare on one year deals? Not at all, it actually somewhat common. 2 year deals are rare but hardly unheard of.

Semantics Ras. Of course it happens, but I'd guess that less than 10% of the players in the NFL renegotiate their contracts prior to the period where its expiration is imminent. That's just a guess, but if that's close, I consider that rare. 90% of the time, it doesn't happen.

I'm not trying to nitpic, but you use words like unheard of and extremely rare and that isn't true in the least. I don't have time to pull numbers but I'd say 2 year renegotiations are rare and 1 years are quite common.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Didn't Richard Seymour either last year or this year redo his deal with two years left?

Actually, Seymour held out last year with two years remaining on his contract, but New England didn't redo his deal. The Patriots redid his deal this offseason with a year left on his contract.

Walker had three years left on his deal when he started bitching and moaning and after one great year in three. I can't pin the blame on Thompson on this one. For the talk that Thompson could have massaged Walker's ego, there are a ton of good GMs for winning teams that play hardball in these situations.

[Rastak]

Didn't Richard Seymour either last year or this year redo his deal with two years left?

Actually, Seymour held out last year with two years remaining on his contract, but New England didn't redo his deal. The Patriots redid his deal this offseason with a year left on his contract.

Walker had three years left on his deal when he started bitching and moaning and after one great year in three. I can't pin the blame on Thompson on this one. For the talk that Thompson could have massaged Walker's ego, there are a ton of good GMs for winning teams that play hardball in these situations.

Three year deals are a different kettle of fish, now that's rare. I still think Seymore had two years left.


edit: Nope you are correct, he had one year left.

[HarveyWallbangers]

From ESPN:

Seymour, 26, was entering the final season of his contract and scheduled to earn a 2006 base salary of $2.02 million. Without the extension, Seymour would have been eligible for unrestricted free agency next spring

[HarveyWallbangers]

I do disagree with this part of Vince's post:

FACT: The definition of a contract is: a binding agreement between two or more persons or parties; especially, one legally enforceable.

FACT: While contracts are occassionally renegotiated, NEITHER PARTY is obligated to change the agreement after the fact. Conversely, both player and team are legally obligated to abide by the terms of the contract that is mutually agreed upon.

Binding? Hardly. The team can cut the player at any time.

I don't have a problem with a guy wanting to renegotiate. I do have a problem with a guy who has had one good year and has three years left on his contract wanting to renegotiate.

[FritzDontBlitz]

well put, vince.

the walker lovers probably aint listening, though.

personally, i wish tt would have called walker's bluff and forced him to choose retirement. i don't think he would have, though....what he would have probably done is went to every sympathetic writer he could find and bash the hell out of brett, tt and the pack in the media hopes of embarrassing green bay into caving in to his contract demands.

in a related story of sorts, look at the way green bay, brett, tt and m3 embraced k-rob and continue to support him during his suspension. look at brett's remarks about how callous and stupid the nfl's substance abuse policy is. sounds to me like an organization that will go out of its way to help a player who really wants to be there.

[FritzDontBlitz]

by the way....

isn't brett in danger of a fine for criticizing the league's policies like that?

[FritzDontBlitz]

I do disagree with this part of Vince's post:

FACT: The definition of a contract is: a binding agreement between two or more persons or parties; especially, one legally enforceable.

FACT: While contracts are occassionally renegotiated, NEITHER PARTY is obligated to change the agreement after the fact. Conversely, both player and team are legally obligated to abide by the terms of the contract that is mutually agreed upon.

Binding? Hardly. The team can cut the player at any time.

I don't have a problem with a guy wanting to renegotiate. I do have a problem with a guy who has had one good year and has three years left on his contract wanting to renegotiate.

not necessarily true. a team can only cut you if you fail to hold up to your end of the bargain - mainly by coming in out of shape or being outplayed by someone else on the roster and therefore becoming expendable - but the team is still obligated to pay you through the remainder of your contract unless another team steps in and absorbs the costs by signing the player. many ex-packers still count as "dead cap space" for this reason.

[HarveyWallbangers]

but the team is still obligated to pay you through the remainder of your contract unless another team steps in and absorbs the costs by signing the player. many ex-packers still count as "dead cap space" for this reason.

The team isn't obligated to pay the player the rest of his contract.

It works like this. For example, say a player signed for 5y/$5M plus $1M signing bonus for a total of $6M. Let's say the team cuts the player after two years. The player would have received $3M on the $6M contract. For salary cap purposes the signing bonus is spread out over the length of the contract... meaning it counts $200,000/year against the cap. When a player gets cut, the remaining portion of the cap charge is pushed against the cap that year. Thus, the player would count as $600,000 of dead cap space. The player only saw half the money that he originally signed for.

[HarveyWallbangers]

a team can only cut you if you fail to hold up to your end of the bargain - mainly by coming in out of shape or being outplayed by someone else on the roster and therefore becoming expendable

A team can cut you for any reason they want. You could be playing as well as you can (even better than you did when you signed the original contract), but they could sign or draft better player(s), and you become expendable.