STIRRING THE TT POT AGAIN ..."FOR THE FUTURE"

[mraynrand]

Still, you can't lose one or more of your best players every year and expect to compete. The loss of McKenzie, Wahle, and Walker in successive years (actually they 'lost' Walker two years in a row - once to injury and once to contract dispute) has had a big impact on this team.

You are right, that makes it difficult, but there was a time GB survived those types of losses. You have to draft well and have replacements on board.

Packer starters and significant backups lost as FAs under Wolf:

'93 - Chuck Cecil, Tootie Robbins
'94 - Tony Bennett, Doug Wedell
'95 - Bryce Paup, Joe Sims, Ed West, Darrell Thompson, Tim Hauk, Matt Brock.
'96 - Harry Galbreath, John Jurkovic, Fred Strickland
'97 - Desmond Howard
'98 - Aaron Taylor, Doug Evans, Craig Hentrich, Eugene Robinson, Gabe Wilkins, Edgar Bennett
'99 - Adam Timmerman, Travis Jervey, Bob Kuberski, Sean Landeta, Lamont Hollinquest, Darick Holmes
2000 - Keith McKenzie, Vaughn Booker
2001 - Ross Verba

Lots of All Pros in that group, guys who were close, and others that were key contributors to the Packers. A solid roster survives those types of player losses year after year by drafting well and having replacements like Teague, Sims for Robbins, Johnny Holland, Wayne Simmons, Rivera, Wahle, Tauscher, Clifton, etc.

When they left the Packers, which of these guys were all-pro? Was any guy other than Timmerman actually one of the best three at his position in the conference? I guess you'd miss Bennett, Paup, and Timmerman. Ed West? Eugene Robinson? Yeech. I'm talking best players on your team. Still, your right. You have to have some depth to compensate for loss of players. The 2001 and 2004 drafts were awful, 2003 was marginal and 2002 was good. That's not enough.

[Patler]

Still, you can't lose one or more of your best players every year and expect to compete. The loss of McKenzie, Wahle, and Walker in successive years (actually they 'lost' Walker two years in a row - once to injury and once to contract dispute) has had a big impact on this team.

You are right, that makes it difficult, but there was a time GB survived those types of losses. You have to draft well and have replacements on board.

Packer starters and significant backups lost as FAs under Wolf:

'93 - Chuck Cecil, Tootie Robbins
'94 - Tony Bennett, Doug Wedell
'95 - Bryce Paup, Joe Sims, Ed West, Darrell Thompson, Tim Hauk, Matt Brock.
'96 - Harry Galbreath, John Jurkovic, Fred Strickland
'97 - Desmond Howard
'98 - Aaron Taylor, Doug Evans, Craig Hentrich, Eugene Robinson, Gabe Wilkins, Edgar Bennett
'99 - Adam Timmerman, Travis Jervey, Bob Kuberski, Sean Landeta, Lamont Hollinquest, Darick Holmes
2000 - Keith McKenzie, Vaughn Booker
2001 - Ross Verba

Lots of All Pros in that group, guys who were close, and others that were key contributors to the Packers. A solid roster survives those types of player losses year after year by drafting well and having replacements like Teague, Sims for Robbins, Johnny Holland, Wayne Simmons, Rivera, Wahle, Tauscher, Clifton, etc.

When they left the Packers, which of these guys were all-pro? Was any guy other than Timmerman actually one of the best three at his position in the conference? I guess you'd miss Bennett, Paup, and Timmerman. Ed West? Eugene Robinson? Yeech. I'm talking best players on your team. Still, your right. You have to have some depth to compensate for loss of players. The 2001 and 2004 drafts were awful, 2003 was marginal and 2002 was good. That's not enough.

Well for that matter, when he left Wahle had not been an all pro or pro bowl player yet. As you know, there are many "All-Pro" lists, but of the above, the ones who had made at least one while a Packer include:
Cecil
Paup
Howard
Robinson
Evans
Hentrich
Jervey (for Special Teams)

Pro Bowl participants while Packers include:
Cecil
Paup
Jervey

The year after he left, Paup became NFL Defensive Player of the year, and went to numerous Pro Bowls. Timmerman too. Many felt that Bennett and Evans deserved to go to the Pro bowl, but didn't.

You may not like Ed West, but he was a starter for a lot of years and is still #18 on the all-time Packer list for number of receptions. The only tight end in Packer history with more receptions was Paul Coffman. Plus, West was an exceptional blocker. My list was intended to include starters who were lost and significant backups. Many of those were as significant as Wahle and Walker, and the overall numbers were much higher.

[swede]

Sorry Bretsky, but I'm siding with Patler.

My grandpa had a good old house on a sh*tty foundation. Twenty years ago he jacked the thing up and built a new foundation under it. It wasn't pretty, but it worked. Recently, after funding allowed, he completely redid the upper portion of the house on top of the newer, sturdier foundation.

Favre and Driver won't be here forever, but they pretty much won that game yesterday imo. (Good ol' house)

And those young offensive linemen seem to be getting the ZBS, though pass protection needs work. The young linebackers played well also--so I have to apologize to Popinga and Barnett for not loving them all the time. (New foundation)

It strikes me as unrealistic that, in a competitive league of 32 teams, a fan can't give a little patience to the process. TT has been finding young players to complement our productive veterans now. Still to come are new players that will become the foundation of this team's future. Staying on TT's bandwagon has been bumpy for me, but I haven't fallen off yet.

Mark your calendars for 2009 oh disbelieving ones. We'll either have a playoff team or a new GM.

And for goodness sake get off of Wahle and Walker. Talk about beating a dead horse. THEY DIDN'T WANT TO BE HERE OR THEY'D BE HERE!

p.s. After yesterday's game I sure wish Ahman Green was 26 again.

[Bretsky]

Re: STIRRING THE TT POT AGAIN ..."FOR THE FUTURE"

RANDOM THOUGHTS ON THIS SATURDAY

But knowing of Robinson's probable suspension before the trade deadline and then Fergy's injury, we heard little of TT's efforts to bring in a quality WR. Did he try ? I'd hope so, but I'm starting to be more of a doubter.

And is Brewster and Bookman really the best out there ? Maybe we can find the next flavor of the day after our Taco like experiment last year; but it's doubtful. An effort for Willie Ponder would have looked real nice now. Tyrone Calico anyone ?

B

If Ponder or Calico are so interesting, how come in just the last two weeks the following teams filled WR needs by doing the following:

Bengals put a WR on IR, signed Glenn Holt from their practice squad.
Texans signed David Anderson from their practice squad.
Tampa signed Chad Lucas.
Miami released a WR, signed Vick from their practice squad.
Detroit signed Devale Ellis from their practice squad.
Arizona signed Carlyle Holiday from their practice squad.
MN releasedMann and signed Bethel Johnson.
N.E. signed Jabar Gaffney.

In just two weeks covering transactions before and after the Packers signed Francies eight other teams passed on these guys, in spite of making moves involving wide receivers. You can ignore Miami's move involving Vick if you want, its hard to say what all is behind that, but that still leaves 7 others.

I have no great explanation on Calico; maybe he's an attitude problem.

Nobody took a shot at Ponder because he was snatched up right away. I was referring to the call of a couple people in here to grab him right away after the final countdown. TT didn't take a shot. Surprised me. He's with Holmy. Still a very very good special teams guy and return man.

B

[Bretsky]

Sorry Bretsky, but I'm siding with Patler.

My grandpa had a good old house on a sh*tty foundation. Twenty years ago he jacked the thing up and built a new foundation under it. It wasn't pretty, but it worked. Recently, after funding allowed, he completely redid the upper portion of the house on top of the newer, sturdier foundation.

Favre and Driver won't be here forever, but they pretty much won that game yesterday imo. (Good ol' house)

And those young offensive linemen seem to be getting the ZBS, though pass protection needs work. The young linebackers played well also--so I have to apologize to Popinga and Barnett for not loving them all the time. (New foundation)

It strikes me as unrealistic that, in a competitive league of 32 teams, a fan can't give a little patience to the process. TT has been finding young players to complement our productive veterans now. Still to come are new players that will become the foundation of this team's future. Staying on TT's bandwagon has been bumpy for me, but I haven't fallen off yet.

Mark your calendars for 2009 oh disbelieving ones. We'll either have a playoff team or a new GM.

And for goodness sake get off of Wahle and Walker. Talk about beating a dead horse. THEY DIDN'T WANT TO BE HERE OR THEY'D BE HERE!

p.s. After yesterday's game I sure wish Ahman Green was 26 again.

I'm not sure Patler and I completely disagree here; I'm not completely on or off the TT wagon.

I just think TT needs to do a better job utilizing ALL avenues........free agency, trades, and the draft. I think Patler would agree, but grade TT a heck of a lot higher overall then I would now.

B

[vince]

Sorry Bretsky, but I'm siding with Patler.

My grandpa had a good old house on a sh*tty foundation. Twenty years ago he jacked the thing up and built a new foundation under it. It wasn't pretty, but it worked. Recently, after funding allowed, he completely redid the upper portion of the house on top of the newer, sturdier foundation.

Favre and Driver won't be here forever, but they pretty much won that game yesterday imo. (Good ol' house)

And those young offensive linemen seem to be getting the ZBS, though pass protection needs work. The young linebackers played well also--so I have to apologize to Popinga and Barnett for not loving them all the time. (New foundation)

It strikes me as unrealistic that, in a competitive league of 32 teams, a fan can't give a little patience to the process. TT has been finding young players to complement our productive veterans now. Still to come are new players that will become the foundation of this team's future. Staying on TT's bandwagon has been bumpy for me, but I haven't fallen off yet.

Mark your calendars for 2009 oh disbelieving ones. We'll either have a playoff team or a new GM.

And for goodness sake get off of Wahle and Walker. Talk about beating a dead horse. THEY DIDN'T WANT TO BE HERE OR THEY'D BE HERE!

p.s. After yesterday's game I sure wish Ahman Green was 26 again.

I'm not sure Patler and I completely disagree here; I'm not completely on or off the TT wagon.

I just think TT needs to do a better job utilizing ALL avenues........free agency, trades, and the draft. I think Patler would agree, but grade TT a heck of a lot higher overall then I would now.

B

I have no doubt that he will, B, at the right time. The wrong time to go out and sign high-priced free agents is when 1) you're in cap hell, as the team was in '05, and 2) you have a brand new coaching staff that will be implementing new systems and the team lacks the depth to get to an elite level in the first place. Doing so at that time perpetuates your salary cap problems, and just gets the team another win or two.

Free agent signings appease the fans, because they show that you're doing something, but when they turn out like Joe Johnson, they kill you.

To see how to build a consistent winner, take a look at two franchises who take opposite approaches and see which one has been more successful over the last decade.

1) Pittsburgh
2) Washington

I don't advocate for being as INACTIVE in free agency as Pittsburgh is year in and year out, but until the Packers have learned more about who they are and get to the point where plugging 3 or 4 holes will get them to elite status, I like the fact that they team errs on the side of maintaining the cap flexibility to act in the best interests of the team, rather than having no flexibility, other than to mortgage the future, to make the improvements that need to be made.

This franchise is in a VERY GOOD position for the future. It's getting better and better on the field, and is definitely on the rise. That turnaround has occurred pretty quickly from where it was just a year ago.