Packers want Adalius Thomas

[wist43]

At the end of the day, he's a "lunch pail" guy...

In other words, he is white.

What the fuck more do you want out of a DE? Did you decide to just ingore the stats Patler posted? Did you even watch GBs games this year? I don't think you did after reading your assertation that Kampman was solely going up against TEs. What you seemed to miss was Kampman beating the OL he was matched against BEFORE getting to the TE double.

To hell with it. Either you're trying to provoke a response from the people who know what the hell they're talking about, or you're playing the part of the bafoon for kicks. Then again, maybe you ain't playin'.

Mr. Basket,

I don't have to try to "provoke" a response from the regulars... we're usually at loggerheads when it comes to the talent level of the Packers - I accuse them of seeing the team thru G&G glasses, and they accuse me of being hard headed and acidic by nature... all of which are generally true, lol.

That said, I can assure you I understand the game... in fact, I considered coaching as a career, and I still study the game as a hobby.

Stats generally mean nothing w/o context... Barnett defenders prattle on endlessly about tackle stats, but they mean nothing if they're consistently coming 10 yds downfield, or as the result of being the closest defender when a ball carrier goes out of bounds. Game changing plays??? Tackles for loss??? Forced Fumbles??? Sacks???... Barnett is sadly lacking.

Barnett... tackles, yes - game changing plays, no - difference maker, no.

Same case with Kampman - although I like Kampman a hell of a lot more than I like Barnett.

Kampman gets his numbers from hustle. He rarely beats an OT around the corner, and he rarely is able to bull rush an OT straight back to the QB... He gets his sacks as the result of good coverage and the QB having to hold the ball... beyond that, he benefits from having KGB on the other side - where KGB, even if he doesn't consistently do it, is able to flush the QB over to Kampman's side b/c he's a fairly consistent upfield rusher.

I just got done watching the first 2 1/2 quarters of the 1st Detroit game... and just as I mentioned, the offensive game plan of the Lions called for Kampman to be blocked by the TE, straight up, in a normal 5 step drop... There was another instance in which Kampman was double teamed by two TE's, and a handful (3 or 4) of times in which he was chipped by the back. Every other snap he was singled up on Jonathon Scott, a rookie OT, and Scott handled him pretty easily.

As I said, I think offensive coordinators stopped trying to block him with a TE as the season wore on; but still, nothing much really changed - Kampman still wasn't bowling anybody over. He just hustled, worked hard, and put the QB, or ball carrier on the ground when he had the opportunity.

Like I said, I like Kampman and always have... he's just never going to be a difference maker.

[wist43]

I like Kampman, always have, but to say he's one of the 5 or 6 best DL in all of football is insane...

Hell, teams thought absolutely nothing of blocking him with a TE... it happened all the time - and not just on plays away from him... they'd assign a TE to him straight up in pass blocking. Granted, he would defeat that block a good amount of the time, and I think offensive coordinators stopped doing it as much as the season wore on, but still... that's a pretty disrespectful slap in the face for any DE to take.

First, I did not say he was one of the 5 or 6 best DL in all of football. I compared him statistically to all lineman, but specifically said he was one of the six or so best ends.

It really doesn't matter who they tried to block Kampman with, the fact is they were not successful. Further, I dispute your assertion that blocking him with a TE "happened all the time". I think it was the Vikings who tried it and Kampman abused them for it. I will admit, there was a time in the middle of the season when Kampman did not do well against a few fairly pedestrian tackles he went up against, but that was only a couple weeks. PLayers have ups and downs, they all do.

I'm not sure what you think a pro-bowl player is. He is not necessarily a future HOFer. He is simply one of the best at his position that year. If Kampman is not "pro-bowl calibre" then you should be able to name 8 or 10 DEs who are, to make it clear that he is not. Who were they in the 2006 season?

Patler,

I did notice that after I posted you had, in fact, said only DE's as opposed to all defensive linemen - so you're assertion is only slightly less "insane", lol.

To me, a pro bowler is someone who is a difference maker... just as I would argue that Chicago, or any NFC team for that matter, wasn't worthy of being a SB team, I would also argue that certain players aren't worthy of being considered pro bowlers, even though they've been voted into the game.

I mean somebody has to go, right??? Just as a team from the NFC was pigeon holed into the SB. Does anyone really think that Chicago was better than San Diego, New England, or Baltimore???

I guess when I refer to a "pro bowl calibur player", I'm referring to difference maker... Flash, hype, showboating... means nothing to me.

Had to do an edit... sucked in my bowling league tonight, so I drowned my sorrows with a couple of beers - too many!!!!

"Who else could go for some flap jacks"???!!!! .... Drunk guy from "Groundhog Day"... Sounds pretty good about now!!!

[HarveyWallbangers]

Who were the 6 difference making DEs who were better this year?

[SkinBasket]

Mr. Basket,

I don't have to try to "provoke" a response from the regulars... we're usually at loggerheads when it comes to the talent level of the Packers - I accuse them of seeing the team thru G&G glasses, and they accuse me of being hard headed and acidic by nature... all of which are generally true, lol.

That said, I can assure you I understand the game... in fact, I considered coaching as a career, and I still study the game as a hobby.

Stats generally mean nothing w/o context... Barnett defenders prattle on endlessly about tackle stats, but they mean nothing if they're consistently coming 10 yds downfield, or as the result of being the closest defender when a ball carrier goes out of bounds. Game changing plays??? Tackles for loss??? Forced Fumbles??? Sacks???... Barnett is sadly lacking.

Barnett... tackles, yes - game changing plays, no - difference maker, no.

Same case with Kampman - although I like Kampman a hell of a lot more than I like Barnett.

Kampman gets his numbers from hustle. He rarely beats an OT around the corner, and he rarely is able to bull rush an OT straight back to the QB... He gets his sacks as the result of good coverage and the QB having to hold the ball... beyond that, he benefits from having KGB on the other side - where KGB, even if he doesn't consistently do it, is able to flush the QB over to Kampman's side b/c he's a fairly consistent upfield rusher.

I just got done watching the first 2 1/2 quarters of the 1st Detroit game... and just as I mentioned, the offensive game plan of the Lions called for Kampman to be blocked by the TE, straight up, in a normal 5 step drop... There was another instance in which Kampman was double teamed by two TE's, and a handful (3 or 4) of times in which he was chipped by the back. Every other snap he was singled up on Jonathon Scott, a rookie OT, and Scott handled him pretty easily.

As I said, I think offensive coordinators stopped trying to block him with a TE as the season wore on; but still, nothing much really changed - Kampman still wasn't bowling anybody over. He just hustled, worked hard, and put the QB, or ball carrier on the ground when he had the opportunity.

Like I said, I like Kampman and always have... he's just never going to be a difference maker.

Well I considered a career fisting myself, so I consider myself just as qualified to judge a DE who has ability and produces results versus someone who simply runs in circles and gets lucky enough every now and again to run into the QB.

I guess once he paints himself a darker color and changes his name to D'Arongelo Kamp'mon, you'll be convinced that his production isn't just the result of a confused, hard working, untalented whitey running around in circles waiting for the superleet KGB to chase the terrified QB into the cracker's grasp. Then again, maybe not.

[wist43]

Mr. Basket,

I don't have to try to "provoke" a response from the regulars... we're usually at loggerheads when it comes to the talent level of the Packers - I accuse them of seeing the team thru G&G glasses, and they accuse me of being hard headed and acidic by nature... all of which are generally true, lol.

That said, I can assure you I understand the game... in fact, I considered coaching as a career, and I still study the game as a hobby.

Stats generally mean nothing w/o context... Barnett defenders prattle on endlessly about tackle stats, but they mean nothing if they're consistently coming 10 yds downfield, or as the result of being the closest defender when a ball carrier goes out of bounds. Game changing plays??? Tackles for loss??? Forced Fumbles??? Sacks???... Barnett is sadly lacking.

Barnett... tackles, yes - game changing plays, no - difference maker, no.

Same case with Kampman - although I like Kampman a hell of a lot more than I like Barnett.

Kampman gets his numbers from hustle. He rarely beats an OT around the corner, and he rarely is able to bull rush an OT straight back to the QB... He gets his sacks as the result of good coverage and the QB having to hold the ball... beyond that, he benefits from having KGB on the other side - where KGB, even if he doesn't consistently do it, is able to flush the QB over to Kampman's side b/c he's a fairly consistent upfield rusher.

I just got done watching the first 2 1/2 quarters of the 1st Detroit game... and just as I mentioned, the offensive game plan of the Lions called for Kampman to be blocked by the TE, straight up, in a normal 5 step drop... There was another instance in which Kampman was double teamed by two TE's, and a handful (3 or 4) of times in which he was chipped by the back. Every other snap he was singled up on Jonathon Scott, a rookie OT, and Scott handled him pretty easily.

As I said, I think offensive coordinators stopped trying to block him with a TE as the season wore on; but still, nothing much really changed - Kampman still wasn't bowling anybody over. He just hustled, worked hard, and put the QB, or ball carrier on the ground when he had the opportunity.

Like I said, I like Kampman and always have... he's just never going to be a difference maker.

Well I considered a career fisting myself, so I consider myself just as qualified to judge a DE who has ability and produces results versus someone who simply runs in circles and gets lucky enough every now and again to run into the QB.

I guess once he paints himself a darker color and changes his name to D'Arongelo Kamp'mon, you'll be convinced that his production isn't just the result of a confused, hard working, untalented whitey running around in circles waiting for the superleet KGB to chase the terrified QB into the cracker's grasp. Then again, maybe not.

Mr. Basket,

Might I be the first to congratulate you, and encourage you, in your self "fisting" endeavours...

[wist43]

Who were the 6 difference making DEs who were better this year?

Harvey,

I'll admit that I haven't studied the question... but to me, the question is, "is a guy even worthy of being voted to the pro bowl".

Like I said, in my view, you could have a year in which no position player is worthy of being voted in... but, of course, someone has to get voted in.

Just as someone from the NFC has to play in the SB... doesn't mean they're worthy of the honor. At no time did I consider Chicago a SB calibur team.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Kind of hard to argue with the production of leading all NFL DL in sacks and tackles (according to Yahoo stats--not homeristic stats done by the Packers). Maybe he had some sacks against TEs and took advantage of some bad OTs at times, but not most of the time. That kind of production is rarely found. Most DEs are one-dimensional.

To me, this wreaks of a guy who has pigeon-holed a player and can't see his improvement (kind of like Barnett the last two years).

[wist43]

Kind of hard to argue with the production of leading all NFL DL in sacks and tackles (according to Yahoo stats--not homeristic stats done by the Packers). Maybe he had some sacks against TEs and took advantage of some bad OTs at times, but not most of the time. That kind of production is rarely found. Most DEs are one-dimensional.

To me, this wreaks of a guy who has pigeon-holed a player and can't see his improvement (kind of like Barnett the last two years).

Harvey,

I see Kampman's improvement, and was, depending on price, all for resigning him... If you go back and look at my posts dated around the time Kampman resigned - you'll find this to be the case.

That said, I do, in fact, see Kampman as a good, productive player, but not a difference maker.

You bring up Barnett, but I don't even remotely equate the two... I really like Kampman, can't stand Barnett...

Shockingly, to you and everyone else on here I suppose, would be that I would consider Barnett to have a ton more talent and upside than Kampman... I dog Barnett b/c I think he's an idiot who doesn't have the first clue about how to play the game...

That said, Kampman will always be a much more productive player than Barnett... As I've said, I like Kampman, always have... just don't consider him to be a pro bowl calibur player, i.e. a difference maker.

[Partial]

Mr. Basket,

I don't have to try to "provoke" a response from the regulars... we're usually at loggerheads when it comes to the talent level of the Packers - I accuse them of seeing the team thru G&G glasses, and they accuse me of being hard headed and acidic by nature... all of which are generally true, lol.

That said, I can assure you I understand the game... in fact, I considered coaching as a career, and I still study the game as a hobby.

Stats generally mean nothing w/o context... Barnett defenders prattle on endlessly about tackle stats, but they mean nothing if they're consistently coming 10 yds downfield, or as the result of being the closest defender when a ball carrier goes out of bounds. Game changing plays??? Tackles for loss??? Forced Fumbles??? Sacks???... Barnett is sadly lacking.

Barnett... tackles, yes - game changing plays, no - difference maker, no.

Same case with Kampman - although I like Kampman a hell of a lot more than I like Barnett.

Kampman gets his numbers from hustle. He rarely beats an OT around the corner, and he rarely is able to bull rush an OT straight back to the QB... He gets his sacks as the result of good coverage and the QB having to hold the ball... beyond that, he benefits from having KGB on the other side - where KGB, even if he doesn't consistently do it, is able to flush the QB over to Kampman's side b/c he's a fairly consistent upfield rusher.

I just got done watching the first 2 1/2 quarters of the 1st Detroit game... and just as I mentioned, the offensive game plan of the Lions called for Kampman to be blocked by the TE, straight up, in a normal 5 step drop... There was another instance in which Kampman was double teamed by two TE's, and a handful (3 or 4) of times in which he was chipped by the back. Every other snap he was singled up on Jonathon Scott, a rookie OT, and Scott handled him pretty easily.

As I said, I think offensive coordinators stopped trying to block him with a TE as the season wore on; but still, nothing much really changed - Kampman still wasn't bowling anybody over. He just hustled, worked hard, and put the QB, or ball carrier on the ground when he had the opportunity.

Like I said, I like Kampman and always have... he's just never going to be a difference maker.

Well I considered a career fisting myself, so I consider myself just as qualified to judge a DE who has ability and produces results versus someone who simply runs in circles and gets lucky enough every now and again to run into the QB.

I guess once he paints himself a darker color and changes his name to D'Arongelo Kamp'mon, you'll be convinced that his production isn't just the result of a confused, hard working, untalented whitey running around in circles waiting for the superleet KGB to chase the terrified QB into the cracker's grasp. Then again, maybe not.

That's really dumb to assume racism. I am sure Wist would admit many of the top Playmakers are white, including Urlacher and Branning. Yes, I combined Tom Brady and Peyton Manning into the super-ultimate weapon.

[Partial]

I can see the point that he isn't a premiere DE. He's not in the Reggie White league. We can all admit this. By all accounts though, as Wist is saying, he is an incredibly solid player that any team would love to have and can live with. Does he dictate how the offense gameplans on every play like a Reggie White would, probably not. But, he certainly makes the most out of every opportunity he gets.

[SD GB fan]

success is relative. kampman is probowl worthy. even if every other DE in the league are all pansies, he is still considered "pro bowl" worthy because he made it based on his relative performances. now, as of right now, no one will say he is a future of HOFer or your "difference maker" so to speak. that is because you are judging kampman relative to reggie white and other greats. you may even be judging kampman against julius peppers and jason taylor. those guys are all-pros year in and year out. this is the breakout year for kampman. he doesnt have consistency on a yearly basis yet but hes still young and he does MAKE A DIFFERENCE. a packer team without him would be a different team. just like how the team without barnett was pretty ineffective against the run. if kampman wasnt in the game, you bet the other team would try to run to the replacement's side.

[Packers4Glory]

Kamp is one of the top 5 DE in the entire game right now. period. to argue anything else is purely retarded. You could see it coming a yr ago, and this yr he moved right into the elite. Anyone that ignores the production he has put out and tries to label him a "lunch and pale" type player is a fuck'n retard who looks completely ignorant arguing he isn't one of the best in the lg right now.

[SkinBasket]

That's really dumb to assume racism. I am sure Wist would admit many of the top Playmakers are white, including Urlacher and Branning. Yes, I combined Tom Brady and Peyton Manning into the super-ultimate weapon.

Well, call me dumb, then, but I'm still waiting for what else separates him from other players who post the same kind of numbers but who are "difference makers" or "worthy" of going to the Pro Bowl other than skin color. Apparently it isn't production. It's not stats. Maybe it's because he isn't labeled an "Playmaker" in Madden? Or maybe it's how many commercials you do?

I'm not saying its necessarily racism. It could just as well be general ignorance or a penchant for repeating the idiotic ramblings of people like Stephan A Smith.

[motife]

it would be fun to have an all white Pro Bowl team play an all black squad.

except the white team wouldn't have any cornerbacks, safeties (maybe one), wide receivers or running backs.

they used to call the Celtics "South Africa's team" when they had Larry Bird, Kevin Mchale, and Danny Ainge all starting.

[wist43]

I could care less about race, racism, or any other sociological measure...

When someone brings it up, I can only conclude they have a weak argument and aren't able support it, or they're racist themselves, or they're some twenty year old twit that thinks they're becoming "enlightened" by listening intently to "Professor Left Wing"...

As for stats - people use stats to buttress their arguments, and that's certainly a valid thing to do. I, do it too... but, in general, I don't get caught up in numbers too much.

Barnett defenders love to prattle on about his tackle stats - somebody had to make the tackles - even if they were 10 yds down field, usually as a result of Barnett jumping out of his gap, or not getting off a block, or taking a bad angle, etc, etc, etc...

Now last year, was probably his best year - yet he finished 2nd on the team in tackles to Hawk (if I'm not mistaken - I didn't look it up, just remember hearing it)... his 2nd year, he had 8 billion tackles and was atrocious, his 3rd year he had 26 billion tackles, but was even worse... obviously, stats don't tell the whole story.

In Kampman's case, I would argue that his 15.5 sacks were a statistical anomaly on the high side... I could see Kampman being a consistent 8-12 sack/yr guy... which is nothing to sneeze at. Kampman is a nice player, I'm glad we have him, but I like I said, I don't mistake him for being a difference maker.