PACK WILL DRAFT WHICH QUALITY WR IN DRAFT?

[red]

i'm not saying to draft a guy just because he's fast, he has to have talent too, which carroll lack any of

but if you have two evenly matched WR's like meachem an bowe, i'm taking the faster of the two

[Packnut]

Re: WR

I don't get caught up in 40 times for WR's. Speed in and out of the breaks are what count. What good is 40 speed for a WR if he can't break a jam? There are several factors that make a great WR.

If you've watched enough LSU games, after CJ, Bowe is the next best WR. He gets off the jam very well cause he's so strong. Also, more times than not, he will out-jump DB's for the ball. He would fit in very well as the #3 WR. Driver, Jennings and Bowe will at least give Favre some ammo.

yeah, but if you can take two WRs, that can both break a jam. one runs a 4.3 and one runs a 5.0. the quicker one will get to the db or LB faster, and get away from him faster.

and this is a game of split seconds

when you see a qb, overthrow a wr on a deep route by a yard or two, if that WR was .05 seconds faster , he would have gotten to that ball

speed matters, not all the time, and not for all positions (does it really matter is a guard can run a good 40 time?)

if you take two guys with the same amount of talent, but run different times, i'm not taking the slower of the two

a difference of .3 = a half yard of difference every second. thats a huge difference in a game of inches

My point is that the best WR's are not always the fastest. I've seen a lot of "speed" guys come out and struggle. Initial burst off the line and the ability to make your cuts are what matters to me. Walker is'nt a speed guy, but he makes more big plays than any burner in the NFL does. I'm just saying that 40 times for a WR does not define him and are over-rated.

[red]

walkers probably not the best example of a non speed guy

he ran in the 4.3-4.4 range

i think you can have so-so 40 speed at wr (4.5ish), and still be good if you're an exceptional route runner, like driver. but a guy that runs 4.7's is going to have a hard time doing much of anything in the pro's imo

if you have blazing speed you have an advantage, and you can get away with not being as crisp as some slower guys

[Charles Woodson]

Re: WR

I don't get caught up in 40 times for WR's. Speed in and out of the breaks are what count. What good is 40 speed for a WR if he can't break a jam? There are several factors that make a great WR.

If you've watched enough LSU games, after CJ, Bowe is the next best WR. He gets off the jam very well cause he's so strong. Also, more times than not, he will out-jump DB's for the ball. He would fit in very well as the #3 WR. Driver, Jennings and Bowe will at least give Favre some ammo.

yeah, but if you can take two WRs, that can both break a jam. one runs a 4.3 and one runs a 5.0. the quicker one will get to the db or LB faster, and get away from him faster.

and this is a game of split seconds

when you see a qb, overthrow a wr on a deep route by a yard or two, if that WR was .05 seconds faster , he would have gotten to that ball

speed matters, not all the time, and not for all positions (does it really matter is a guard can run a good 40 time?)

if you take two guys with the same amount of talent, but run different times, i'm not taking the slower of the two

a difference of .3 = a half yard of difference every second. thats a huge difference in a game of inches

If someone runs in full pads a 4.3 and the other runs a 5.0 in pads then yes the difference in huge. But, you do realize these guys are sprinting full speed straight ahead for the 40, and that is not at all remisicient of running a route (even a streak) and beating a DB.

That is quite the exagerration there with the times, also. This isn't an exact science and i'd argue someone might be a yard or two faster, and ultimately it will likely come down to who can beat his man for the ball, not who can outrun who.

Ahmad Carroll ran like lightning and look where he is. So does Ferguson. So did Justin Fargas two year ago. So did Mike Mamula.

40 time is the absolute most overrated element of the equation of a football player. By far and away.

The three things I would look at are college production, interview/tenacity, cone drill/agility drils.

The players that truly want the ball the most will get the ball more than the biggest, fastest, most athletic guy every day of the week. Lets not forget these are all freakish athletes. Some moreso than others, but give me an Aaron Kampman over a Mike Mamula every day of the week.

Yes the only speed that should matter is there football speed. Do they, or why dont they have a 40 time with pads on? And Partial in your previous post u asked if we could get merriweather.. I thought you hated this kid.

[red]

Re: WR

If someone runs in full pads a 4.3 and the other runs a 5.0 in pads then yes the difference in huge. But, you do realize these guys are sprinting full speed straight ahead for the 40, and that is not at all remisicient of running a route (even a streak) and beating a DB.

you do realise that even though we might look at a 40 time and obsess over it, coaches actually get a lot more out of a 40. they talked about this a lot yesterday on the coverage. they have marks at 10 yards, 20 yards, and 30 yards. every team has guys stationed at those spots with a watch. they can figure acceleration, they can see how fast you get up to top speed, and they can probable figure out your top speed from all that too

so even though us hacks might just focus on a 40 times, coaches and scouts actually do get a good amount of info out of it. so its not completely worthless like some think

lets get a list of all the guys we think are the top WR's in the game, and see if we can track down their 40 times. i know theres a lot of good receivers that run in the 4.5 range, but i'd like to see if any run in the 4.7-4.8 range like jarrett was suppose to have run in private workouts

[Partial]

Re: WR

If someone runs in full pads a 4.3 and the other runs a 5.0 in pads then yes the difference in huge. But, you do realize these guys are sprinting full speed straight ahead for the 40, and that is not at all remisicient of running a route (even a streak) and beating a DB.

you do realise that even though we might look at a 40 time and obsess over it, coaches actually get a lot more out of a 40. they talked about this a lot yesterday on the coverage. they have marks at 10 yards, 20 yards, and 30 yards. every team has guys stationed at those spots with a watch. they can figure acceleration, they can see how fast you get up to top speed, and they can probable figure out your top speed from all that too

so even though us hacks might just focus on a 40 times, coaches and scouts actually do get a good amount of info out of it. so its not completely worthless like some think

lets get a list of all the guys we think are the top WR's in the game, and see if we can track down their 40 times. i know theres a lot of good receivers that run in the 4.5 range, but i'd like to see if any run in the 4.7-4.8 range like jarrett was suppose to have run in private workouts

I would argue that if you clocked TO, Javon, Steve Smith, etc midseason, maybe one or two would clock in the 4.4s.

[Partial]

Re: WR

I don't get caught up in 40 times for WR's. Speed in and out of the breaks are what count. What good is 40 speed for a WR if he can't break a jam? There are several factors that make a great WR.

If you've watched enough LSU games, after CJ, Bowe is the next best WR. He gets off the jam very well cause he's so strong. Also, more times than not, he will out-jump DB's for the ball. He would fit in very well as the #3 WR. Driver, Jennings and Bowe will at least give Favre some ammo.

yeah, but if you can take two WRs, that can both break a jam. one runs a 4.3 and one runs a 5.0. the quicker one will get to the db or LB faster, and get away from him faster.

and this is a game of split seconds

when you see a qb, overthrow a wr on a deep route by a yard or two, if that WR was .05 seconds faster , he would have gotten to that ball

speed matters, not all the time, and not for all positions (does it really matter is a guard can run a good 40 time?)

if you take two guys with the same amount of talent, but run different times, i'm not taking the slower of the two

a difference of .3 = a half yard of difference every second. thats a huge difference in a game of inches

If someone runs in full pads a 4.3 and the other runs a 5.0 in pads then yes the difference in huge. But, you do realize these guys are sprinting full speed straight ahead for the 40, and that is not at all remisicient of running a route (even a streak) and beating a DB.

That is quite the exagerration there with the times, also. This isn't an exact science and i'd argue someone might be a yard or two faster, and ultimately it will likely come down to who can beat his man for the ball, not who can outrun who.

Ahmad Carroll ran like lightning and look where he is. So does Ferguson. So did Justin Fargas two year ago. So did Mike Mamula.

40 time is the absolute most overrated element of the equation of a football player. By far and away.

The three things I would look at are college production, interview/tenacity, cone drill/agility drils.

The players that truly want the ball the most will get the ball more than the biggest, fastest, most athletic guy every day of the week. Lets not forget these are all freakish athletes. Some moreso than others, but give me an Aaron Kampman over a Mike Mamula every day of the week.

Yes the only speed that should matter is there football speed. Do they, or why dont they have a 40 time with pads on? And Partial in your previous post u asked if we could get merriweather.. I thought you hated this kid.

He's a bad person but a steal in the second at our pick.

[Packnut]

walkers probably not the best example of a non speed guy

he ran in the 4.3-4.4 range

i think you can have so-so 40 speed at wr (4.5ish), and still be good if you're an exceptional route runner, like driver. but a guy that runs 4.7's is going to have a hard time doing much of anything in the pro's imo

if you have blazing speed you have an advantage, and you can get away with not being as crisp as some slower guys

My point about Walker is that he is not a speed WR. Yes, he ran a 4.3 but as the 2002 usa today scouting report states, he has no second gear so that 40 time is a bit mis-leading.

Negatives: Fast, but lacks that second gear to consistently escape on deep routes…Not that aggressive as a blocker, making passive attempts to seal off…Needs to develop a nastier nature, as he tends to back down from the physical battles…Seems to hesitate, taking time to regain his speed after making the catch…More effective in deep routes as he is not as quick to get into his short routes like the little receivers do.

[Partial]

walkers probably not the best example of a non speed guy

he ran in the 4.3-4.4 range

i think you can have so-so 40 speed at wr (4.5ish), and still be good if you're an exceptional route runner, like driver. but a guy that runs 4.7's is going to have a hard time doing much of anything in the pro's imo

if you have blazing speed you have an advantage, and you can get away with not being as crisp as some slower guys

Plaxico Burress runs about a 4.7-4.9 I would think. Most Tight Ends including Tony Gonzalez and Tony Gates run probably about 4.8 and they have had a great deal of success in catching the ball.

It all comes down to playing the game to take advantage of what the player has to offer. If you have speed and can beat a jam, throw the deep ball and let the receiver catch it. If you have power and strength to break tackles, throw a button hook. If you are quick as a cat, throw a slant and shake and bake your way for some yardage. Every one of these guys are phenominal athletes with the rare one like Johnson who seems to have it all. You've simply got to take the player that you have and maximize them in a scheme.

Herman Moore was very, very successful and he was very slow. People thought Jerome Bettis was too slow but he is a sure-fire hall of famer.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I think Burress is faster than that. He's not a speed demon, but I'd think he'd run at least 4.6.

[red]

plaxico jumped into my mind too right away as a guy who could be that slow

i'm trying to find a time for him

[Packnut]

Bowe

I guess I should be more specific cause my posts are in relation to Bowe. Him running a 4.5 is not suprising or a negative. First off, he's a HUGE WR. He gets off the jam and has adequate acceleration and imo, runs very good routes. He will out-jump 90% of DB's and once he learns to really use his body, will have a big advantage over the smaller DB's in the league. A case in point is the bowl game against ND where he has 2 defenders on him and still comes down with a jump ball. I'd rather have a WR who runs a 4.5 and can do that rather than a guy who runs a 4.3. Most CB's in the league can match speed with WR's.

Please don't mis-understand me, the 40 time is one measuring stick. I'm just saying that for me, it's not the most important part of a WR.

[Partial]

more important than anything is the amount of fight they have. Give me a guy who wants to be the best and wants every ball more than the cornerback. He'll get it 9/10.

[Packnut]

WR

If TT goes WR at 16, it look's to me like it's either Bowe or Meachem assuming both are there. I'd hate to be the one to decide this choice.

Meachem may have more up-side but how can you judge him on just 1 season? I guess Bowe is the safer pick, but Meachem might be the more explosive pick. I went back and looked at a few Tenn games that I had recorded and no doubt he is very impressive........

[red]

i'm seeing a range of 4.5 to 4.65 for plax

i don't know if any of those are official though