Grow from Within

[Farley Face]

We have much riding on the development of a number of 'unknown' young players currently on our roster. In particular the bottom third of of roster. Guys like:

WR: Holiday, Bodiford
TE: Alcorn, Humprhey
RB: Pope, Beach
OL: Palmer, Bourke
QB: Martin

DL: Hunter, Jolly, Scandrett
LB: Randall, Goodwell
Secondary: Peprah, Bush

There are numerous others who we are all more familiar with: Blackmon, Rayner, Ryan, Underwood, Dendy, Blackmon, Moll, Hodge, Jennings, Spitz, Moll, Rodgers, etc. I'm sure there are more I've omitted.

So much is unknown right now it is an anxious time for Packer fans. I guess this is what it is like to watch a roster being rebuilt from the inside out.

I'm not lobbying for support one way or the other, but when TT and M3 speak of developing what we already have I can see their point. I hope they are putting their faith and future employment in the right group of guys.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Every team has young players like this. They don't rely on so many having to step up though. Thompson has to fill some of these holes from outside the organization. I'm trying to be patient, but I have to believe he makes 2-3 moves before the draft.

[Charles Woodson]

Is jolly still on the team? last i heard he was in oakland. I thought Hunter got cut a while ago too

Never mind wrong person.

[Joemailman]

Jolly and Hunter are still on the roster. I think you may be thinking of Dave Tollefson.

[gbgary]

growing from within is fine and good but letting cap space go to waste either by not signing help or resigning our own is stupid. get used to 8-8.

[Farley Face]

Every team has young players like this. They don't rely on so many having to step up though. Thompson has to fill some of these holes from outside the organization. I'm trying to be patient, but I have to believe he makes 2-3 moves before the draft.

Exactly. Bottom thirds of rosters turnover quickly as pro personnel types sift through the potential players. In our case we can't afford to miss on more than we hit if our only source of added talent is through organic growth. I'm a fan, so I'll maintain patience and guarded optimism, but they are betting on a group of players they better hope develops like they think it will.

[Patler]

... letting cap space go to waste either by not signing help or resigning our own is stupid. get used to 8-8.

When did the Packers let cap space go to waste?
They haven't the last two seasons and won't in 2007 either.

Some of you write as if the Packers get to the end of the season and have millions of dollars left that just goes to waste. That of course is absolutely false.

In 2005, by the end of the season they had used up all but about 1.7 million of their cap. That was pushed into 2006 via Nall's bonus. In 2006 by the end of the season they had used all but less than a million of their cap. Since their cap was 1.7 million higher than the standard cap because of the money from 2005, the Packers actually used more than the standard cap in 2006, since the surplus went down by about a million from 2005. The 2006 reamaining cap was pushed into 2007 reportedly via a bonus to Herron.

Not only has it not gone to waste, both of the last two seasons they have actually used up most of what was available.

[Patler]

Its not the bottom one-third that needs to improve, its the middle one third that needs to improve. That includes some of the starters and the principal back-ups. The bottom one-third just comes and goes. Its the top 36 players or so that really matter, not #37 thru #53. They are mostly irrelevant.

On defense the game is played with 6 d-line, 3 lbs and 6 dbs.
On offense, 6-7 O-line, 2 QBs, 4 RB/FBs, 2 TEs and 4 WRs.
A long snapper, a punter and a kicker.
The rest don't matter much. If you get down that deep at too many positions your season is toast anyway.

[Farley Face]

Its not the bottom one-third that needs to improve, its the middle one third that needs to improve. That includes some of the starters and the principal back-ups. The bottom one-third just comes and goes. Its the top 36 players or so that really matter, not #37 thru #53. They are mostly irrelevant.

On defense the game is played with 6 d-line, 3 lbs and 6 dbs.
On offense, 6-7 O-line, 2 QBs, 4 RB/FBs, 2 TEs and 4 WRs.
A long snapper, a punter and a kicker.
The rest don't matter much. If you get down that deep at too many positions your season is toast anyway.

My point is they seem to be relying on 37-53 to participate in the top 36 and make a meaninful contribution. Do you see a clear cut difference between the Packers 23-36 and 37-53? It all seems based on youth and potential (not necessarily a bad thing, but definitley our current reality)

[Patler]

Its not the bottom one-third that needs to improve, its the middle one third that needs to improve. That includes some of the starters and the principal back-ups. The bottom one-third just comes and goes. Its the top 36 players or so that really matter, not #37 thru #53. They are mostly irrelevant.

On defense the game is played with 6 d-line, 3 lbs and 6 dbs.
On offense, 6-7 O-line, 2 QBs, 4 RB/FBs, 2 TEs and 4 WRs.
A long snapper, a punter and a kicker.
The rest don't matter much. If you get down that deep at too many positions your season is toast anyway.

My point is they seem to be relying on 37-53 to participate in the top 36 and make a meaninful contribution. Do you see a clear cut difference between the Packers 23-36 and 37-53? It all seems based on youth and potential (not necessarily a bad thing, but definitley our current reality)

Well, I guess I do see a difference between your position and mine. For example, from your list:

Holiday and Bodiford are irrelevant. Improvement in Jennings and a draft pick, FA signing or (dare I say it) a healthy Ferguson are needed. Holiday, Bodiford or Martin should be 5th receivers, nothing more.

Palmer and Bourke are irrlevant. Improvement in Colledge, Spitz and Moll is much more important. Bourke (or someone) just needs to win a back-up position, not challenge to play.

Randall and Goodwell are irrelevant, neither will be around. Improvement in Poppinga and Hawk is needed.

Hunter and Scandrett(?) are irrelevant. I doubt either will make the final roster. Jolly is one that needs to improve, as you listed, along with Jenkins as a DE.

I agree that one of Alcorn or Humphrey needs to step up, along with Donald Lee or a draft pick. Bubba needs to return to the Bubba of the past.

Hopefully Peprah and Bush won't be around, or will be deep on the depth chart. Blackmon, Dendy, Underwood and a draft pick or picks are the important ones.

Pope, Beach or more likely a draft pick do need to step up. Or a summer pick-up (identity unknown) needs to re-establish himself as a capabale back.

Both kickers need to progress.

The Packers are not relying on the nobodies, except for a few. The team will improve from the development of the recent draft picks, and that is how it should be. There should be a natural and regular turnover of the roster.

[Farley Face]

Its not the bottom one-third that needs to improve, its the middle one third that needs to improve. That includes some of the starters and the principal back-ups. The bottom one-third just comes and goes. Its the top 36 players or so that really matter, not #37 thru #53. They are mostly irrelevant.

On defense the game is played with 6 d-line, 3 lbs and 6 dbs.
On offense, 6-7 O-line, 2 QBs, 4 RB/FBs, 2 TEs and 4 WRs.
A long snapper, a punter and a kicker.
The rest don't matter much. If you get down that deep at too many positions your season is toast anyway.

My point is they seem to be relying on 37-53 to participate in the top 36 and make a meaninful contribution. Do you see a clear cut difference between the Packers 23-36 and 37-53? It all seems based on youth and potential (not necessarily a bad thing, but definitley our current reality)

Well, I guess I do see a difference between your position and mine. For example, from your list:

Holiday and Bodiford are irrelevant. Improvement in Jennings and a draft pick, FA signing or (dare I say it) a healthy Ferguson are needed. Holiday, Bodiford or Martin should be 5th receivers, nothing more.

Palmer and Bourke are irrlevant. Improvement in Colledge, Spitz and Moll is much more important. Bourke (or someone) just needs to win a back-up position, not challenge to play.

Randall and Goodwell are irrelevant, neither will be around. Improvement in Poppinga and Hawk is needed.

Hunter and Scandrett(?) are irrelevant. I doubt either will make the final roster. Jolly is one that needs to improve, as you listed, along with Jenkins as a DE.

I agree that one of Alcorn or Humphrey needs to step up, along with Donald Lee or a draft pick. Bubba needs to return to the Bubba of the past.

Hopefully Peprah and Bush won't be around, or will be deep on the depth chart. Blackmon, Dendy, Underwood and a draft pick or picks are the important ones.

Pope, Beach or more likely a draft pick do need to step up. Or a summer pick-up (identity unknown) needs to re-establish himself as a capabale back.

Both kickers need to progress.

The Packers are not relying on the nobodies, except for a few. The team will improve from the development of the recent draft picks, and that is how it should be. There should be a natural and regular turnover of the roster.

All due respect, you just named improvement is needed from Hawk, Colledge, Jennings, Poppinga, Spitz, Jenkins. They, by your definition, are all already top 22 guys. I'm more focued on the others listed that will need to contribute as primary backups. Holiday, Bodiford, Palmer, Bourke are not irrelavant until and unless others are signed to replace them in key roles.

[prsnfoto]

Wow FF arguing with the great Patler careful you may be struck by lightning. It does seem this is the theme MM and TT are taking that they want to improve within either they see something we don't or they will both be unemployed because if they rely only on the draft odds are this team will not improve much unless these core players do improve ALOT! I am not saying they need to go after huge money FA but they have holes that need to be filled TT has said that there will be cuts by other teams where very good players will get cut for cap reasons that seems to be the only hope we have. With this new cap and teams spending un believable cash on FA's TT might be right I think it looks more and more each year that one third get big money one third get no money and some good vets get cut to make way for younger guys who get middle money(one third).

[Patler]

All due respect, you just named improvement is needed from Hawk, Colledge, Jennings, Poppinga, Spitz, Jenkins. They, by your definition, are all already top 22 guys. I'm more focued on the others listed that will need to contribute as primary backups. Holiday, Bodiford, Palmer, Bourke are not irrelavant until and unless others are signed to replace them in key roles.

Of course I named starters, I even said my list would include starters because it is the middle third of the roster, essentially spots 18-36. I even gave the breakdown of how the game really includes mostly just the top 36, and I applied numbers to the position groups.

The bottom third of the roster includes the game day inactives, the third QB, the 5th and 6th LB, the 5th WR, maybe even the 4th, the 3rd TE, the 4th safety, the 5th CB, the 4th guard, the 2nd center, etc. Most of these are at best just ST guys, some of whom make the team based on ST play even if they are not as good as someone else at their position. These guys change from year to year, and are not really counted on for the future of the team. Absent injury, they don't even play from scrimmage all that much.

The top 18 are mostly veterans who are what they are. You can't expect much improvement, and as they age you need to expect decline. The middle 18 includes the young guys, some of whom start, who are the building blocks of the long term future.

The rest come and go. Occassionally one emerges from seemingly no where, but the improvement of the team comes from improved play of the middle of the roster. The rest don't see the field enough to have that big of an impact.

[Patler]

Wow FF arguing with the great Patler careful you may be struck by lightning.

I guess I don't understand that comment. I haven't noticed a reluctance of people to argue with me. Heck, if they weren't disagreeing with me I wouldn't post nearly as much!

[Packnut]

Dendy

Hey guys, try RECORDING a game once in a while and then go back and study it. Mentioning Dendy as a player to possibly count on is ludicrous. How many times does a guy need to get burned before the light bulbs go on? Sure he does'nt get holding calls like Carroll did but then again Dendy was never close enough!