WOW! Bust out your hip waders!!!!!

[Packnut]

Sherman

I always thought Sherman was a good coach, because of his record. However, after reflecting on this, I'm not sure any longer.

In 2005 Sherman rigidly stuck to the offensive scheme that had worked for him in the past, even though he had inexperienced running backs, inexperienced receivers and instability in the offensive line. He never changed during the season, and ran the same tired old plays and formations that had worked for him since 2000. He asked the guards to be Wahle and Rivera, and they weren't capable of doing that.

Last year McCarthy adapted. He did not run the offense he had hoped to. He had inexperienced receivers, just as Sherman had the year before. He had rookie inexperienced guards, just as Sherman did. He had injuries in the O-line (unlike Sherman), lost Tauscher for a good part of the year and had to start 3 rookies. Greene missed a couple games, Morrency missed games. He had a rookie punter and an inexperienced placekicker. However, he adapted, he found ways to get production and to compensate. He did not expect the young players to do what they were not yet capable of doing. He gave them help.

The result, Sherman was 4-12 in 2005, and McCarthy was 8-8 in 2006.

One year is too short of a time to evaluate a coach, but I am hopeful that McCarthy will be good. My concern is that in the blowout losses he didn't seem to have an "answer" in the second half to improve the situation.

Sherman had his ups and downs. He takes a bad rap here from many including myself, but it's often forgot that he was always picking much higher in the draft due to having winning teams. Let's also not forget that he produced one of the best screen teams around. His biggest weakness was as you pointed out, the ability to adapt on the fly.

However, he had some pretty good schemes, even if he held on to them to long. In any event, Shermy will more than likely always be remembered by the 4th and 26 play. Had that gone the other way, I wonder how history would have changed?

Still, it will always be an unfair comparison to judge Shermy and Teddy as GM's due to the already mentioned draft pick slots and also the huge difference in the salary cap numbers.

[mraynrand]

Patler,

I have to disagree about Sherman, to an extent. He did try to run his same stuff, even in the face of a collection of injuries and O-linemen that couldn't do what Wahle (especially) and Rivera could do. But he did adapt. Look at the games versus Chicago. He pretty much went to a passing attack with lots of underneath stuff - throwing to guys like Thurman and Chatman - the Packers were able to really move the ball, just not score. Injuries were a huge factor - losing Walker, Murphy, Green, Davenport, and Ferguson. There weren't many targets left.

McCarthy faced a similar situation, losing Martin and Tauscher midseason and the Packers were flushed by NE and the Jets - like Sherman was against Baltimore. Both teams were stricken with a paucity of talent on offense.

[Patler]

Its not entirely clear to me how many DIFFERENT trades the Browns and Cowboys made. Over the two days of the draft, the following occured:

The Browns used or traded the following spots from the Cowboys (rond & #overall):

1 - #22
2 - #55
6 - #195
6 - #200
7 - #234

The Cowboys used or traded the following from the Browns:

2 - #36
3 - #67
4 - #103
6 - #178
6 - #195
plus receicing the Browns #1 in 2008.


The talk has been that the Browns offered GB their first in 2008 and their second in 2007 for the Packers 1st in 2007 and second in 2007. There was some talk about trading spots with the Packers in later rounds as well. IF that is what was offered, I do not see much reason to do it. As others have said, it is difficult to assess what the 2008 pick is worth, a future is generally considered to have the value of the 16th pick in that round, since you never know where a team will finish. Why would you trade the 16th pick this year for the 16th pick next year just to move up a couple spots in the second round this year (#47 to #36)?

IF the same offer was made to the Cowboys (and I don't know exactly what was done) the Cowboys traded #22 this year for #16 next year, and moved from #55 in the second round this year to #36 this year.

[mraynrand]

Re: Sherman

Shermy will more than likely always be remembered by the 4th and 26 play. Had that gone the other way, I wonder how history would have changed?

More for 4th and one, right? Shermy scapegoated Donatell for the 4th and 26. The reality is that Philly game finished Sherman. The death of Hatley (and Sherman's seeming refusal or inability to replace him), and the absurd reaction to the Philly loss (Tossing Donatell and replacing him with the ridiculous defensive schemes of Slow-wit; mishandling McKenzie; the 2004 draft). Those things just obliterated the guy. (Even so, the Packers had a pretty good offense in 2004). Somewhere along the line, either Sherman lacked the humility to get help or was too self rightous to admit to his flaws, but in any event, it ended up costing him his job. Still, Harlan was wrong to fire him as GM and try to leave him in as coach. He should have tossed him from both jobs right away - that would have been more fair to Sherman (probably easier to get a new job) and TT (able to hire his own guy right away). Akkk, I hate rehashing the past. But I will, just so long as people continue to paint Sherman as this horrible coach and or completely unsuccessful GM....

[mraynrand]

Its not entirely clear to me how many DIFFERENT trades the Browns and Cowboys made. Over the two days of the draft, the following occured:

The Browns used or traded the following spots from the Cowboys (rond & #overall):

1 - #22
2 - #55
6 - #195
6 - #200
7 - #234

The Cowboys used or traded the following from the Browns:

2 - #36
3 - #67
4 - #103
6 - #178
6 - #195
plus receicing the Browns #1 in 2008.


The talk has been that the Browns offered GB their first in 2008 and their second in 2007 for the Packers 1st in 2007 and second in 2007. There was some talk about trading spots with the Packers in later rounds as well. IF that is what was offered, I do not see much reason to do it. As others have said, it is difficult to assess what the 2008 pick is worth, a future is generally considered to have the value of the 16th pick in that round, since you never know where a team will finish. Why would you trade the 16th pick this year for the 16th pick next year just to move up a couple spots in the second round this year (#47 to #36)?

IF the same offer was made to the Cowboys (and I don't know exactly what was done) the Cowboys traded #22 this year for #16 next year, and moved from #55 in the second round this year to #36 this year.

I wouldn't have made the trade without getting the extra second round pick this year.

[Packnut]

Re: Sherman

Shermy will more than likely always be remembered by the 4th and 26 play. Had that gone the other way, I wonder how history would have changed?

More for 4th and one, right? Shermy scapegoated Donatell for the 4th and 26. The reality is that Philly game finished Sherman. The death of Hatley (and Sherman's seeming refusal or inability to replace him), and the absurd reaction to the Philly loss (Tossing Donatell and replacing him with the ridiculous defensive schemes of Slow-wit; mishandling McKenzie; the 2004 draft). Those things just obliterated the guy. (Even so, the Packers had a pretty good offense in 2004). Somewhere along the line, either Sherman lacked the humility to get help or was too self rightous to admit to his flaws, but in any event, it ended up costing him his job. Still, Harlan was wrong to fire him as GM and try to leave him in as coach. He should have tossed him from both jobs right away - that would have been more fair to Sherman (probably easier to get a new job) and TT (able to hire his own guy right away). Akkk, I hate rehashing the past. But I will, just so long as people continue to paint Sherman as this horrible coach and or completely unsuccessful GM....

I still believe and always will that he should have been fired after the Philly game. I'm the first to admit that I'm not as forgiving as some here are. I believe that these guys get paid good money and don't have the "right" to make mistakes. Excuses are for losers and success in the NFL is judged by winning plain and simple.

[Patler]

Patler,

I have to disagree about Sherman, to an extent. He did try to run his same stuff, even in the face of a collection of injuries and O-linemen that couldn't do what Wahle (especially) and Rivera could do. But he did adapt. Look at the games versus Chicago. He pretty much went to a passing attack with lots of underneath stuff - throwing to guys like Thurman and Chatman - the Packers were able to really move the ball, just not score. Injuries were a huge factor - losing Walker, Murphy, Green, Davenport, and Ferguson. There weren't many targets left.

McCarthy faced a similar situation, losing Martin and Tauscher midseason and the Packers were flushed by NE and the Jets - like Sherman was against Baltimore. Both teams were stricken with a paucity of talent on offense.

That's play calling more than offensive scheme changing, as I see it. Sherman does seem to come up with good game plans sometimes. But overall, through the season, the offense didn't change in either the running or the passing game.

The difference I see was that McCarthy really wants to throw to his TEs, but scrapped it last year to give his rookies help, even lining up the TEs in the backfield at times. He changed his entire passing attack for the season to adapt to the players he had. He even changed his running game to some extent, with somewhat fewer zone blocking running plays later in the year, although you might argue (as would I) that that was play just calling in the running game.

McCarthy adapted the scheme to the players, Sherman tried to make the players fit the scheme.

[Patler]

Re: Sherman

More for 4th and one, right? Shermy scapegoated Donatell for the 4th and 26. The reality is that Philly game finished Sherman. The death of Hatley (and Sherman's seeming refusal or inability to replace him), and the absurd reaction to the Philly loss (Tossing Donatell and replacing him with the ridiculous defensive schemes of Slow-wit; mishandling McKenzie; the 2004 draft). Those things just obliterated the guy. (Even so, the Packers had a pretty good offense in 2004). Somewhere along the line, either Sherman lacked the humility to get help or was too self rightous to admit to his flaws, but in any event, it ended up costing him his job. Still, Harlan was wrong to fire him as GM and try to leave him in as coach. He should have tossed him from both jobs right away - that would have been more fair to Sherman (probably easier to get a new job) and TT (able to hire his own guy right away). Akkk, I hate rehashing the past. But I will, just so long as people continue to paint Sherman as this horrible coach and or completely unsuccessful GM....

Overall, Sherman was unsuccessful as a coach and as a GM. He had some individual success in each, but judging his overall performance he was unsuccesful at both, not withstanding his won/loss record.

Sherman benefitted immensely from playing 6 games each year against Chicago, MN and Detroit. None of them had a winning record during the Sherman years. Sherman's record against teams with winning records for the season was quite poor, he lost more than he won. Playing Chicago, MN and Detroit twice each season, along with another soft team or two gave him a real good chance at a winning season each year, even with an average team. Especially when he had a HOF quarterback still in his prime. I never felt his teams were quite as good as their records, because of who they played. I think their early playoff losses, some playoff trouncings, and their poor records against winning teams support that.

The 2006 Packers were basically in the same boat, and their 8-8 record indicated what they were, a mediocre team.

[RashanGary]

Harlan knew what he was doing when he fired Mike Sherman. I am certain of that.

Sherman got a healthy cap and:

Favre 33
Green 25
Henderson 31
Rivera 29
Wahle 24
Tauscher 24
Clifton 24
Driver 25
Sharper 27
McKenzie 25
Holliday 27
KGB 24



Thompson got a dreadfull cap situation and

Rivera 32 and coming into a contract year
Wahle 27 and coming into a contract year
Favre 36 nearing his end
Driver 29 nearing his end
Green 28 and then went out with a MAJOR injury
Walker 28 and went down with a MAJOR injury
Kamp *One good core player*
Corey Willaims *Decent core player*
Barnett *Good core player
Tauscher 28 nearing his end
Clifton 28 nearing his end
KGB 28 Losing more eveyr year
Sharper 30 with a bad contact and one more year left on his deal
Harris 29 and near the end

Sherman inherited 2 ELITE playmakers in their primes and Thompson inherited 2 who got injured right away and never made it back and 1 who is playing his last couple seasons. It's very hard to compare those two situations equally. Thompson clearly gets more time. HEll, the aging core that Sherman inherited is still a big part of why we're OK now. They'll all be retired in 2-3 years and only 4 or 5 core guys were replenished during Shermans GM stint. Pathetic if you ask me.

[retailguy]

Driver 29 nearing his end

Do you make this shit up as you go? This is ABSURD. The only reason that Donald Driver is a STAR receiver on the Green Bay Packers is because MIKE SHERMAN and his staff trained/coached him and gave him an opportunity.

Perhaps you don't remember history very well, but in 2001, Driver fought for the 5th receiver with a guy by the name of CHARLES LEE. Lee almost got the job, and instead got waived and signed with Tampa Bay, where he played mediocre football for a couple years and then was out of the league. The exact numbers escape me, but Driver caught an average of roughly 20 balls his first THREE seasons in the league.

Driver has been SOLID every single year since 2002, and is the ONLY receiver that has been consistently healthy since then. I shudder to think what this team would look like if it wasn't for Donald Driver.

Green 28 and then went out with a MAJOR injury
Walker 28 and went down with a MAJOR injury

And this is SHERMAN'S fault how? This is pointless. There is no other words for just how absurd this is.

Harris 29 and near the end

NEAR THE END? Last year was one of his best seasons. He just keeps getting better, IN SPITE, of no speed. You are barking up the wrong tree. This is one of 4 or 5 of Sherman's BEST moves as GM, and you're saying he's "over the hill" and that makes it a BAD deal? WTF?

You have to be making this shit up as you go. There is NO other explanation, other than knocking your intelligence level and I'm not going there today..

Give it up and move on...

[Zool]

Driver 29 nearing his end

Do you make this shit up as you go? This is ABSURD. The only reason that Donald Driver is a STAR receiver on the Green Bay Packers is because MIKE SHERMAN and his staff trained/coached him and gave him an opportunity.

Perhaps you don't remember history very well, but in 2001, Driver fought for the 5th receiver with a guy by the name of CHARLES LEE. Lee almost got the job, and instead got waived and signed with Tampa Bay, where he played mediocre football for a couple years and then was out of the league. The exact numbers escape me, but Driver caught an average of roughly 20 balls his first THREE seasons in the league.

Driver has been SOLID every single year since 2002, and is the ONLY receiver that has been consistently healthy since then. I shudder to think what this team would look like if it wasn't for Donald Driver.

Green 28 and then went out with a MAJOR injury
Walker 28 and went down with a MAJOR injury

And this is SHERMAN'S fault how? This is pointless. There is no other words for just how absurd this is.

Harris 29 and near the end

NEAR THE END? Last year was one of his best seasons. He just keeps getting better, IN SPITE, of no speed. You are barking up the wrong tree. This is one of 4 or 5 of Sherman's BEST moves as GM, and you're saying he's "over the hill" and that makes it a BAD deal? WTF?

You have to be making this shit up as you go. There is NO other explanation, other than knocking your intelligence level and I'm not going there today..

Give it up and move on...

Wow you're sensitive. It is possible to have a differing opinion.

[Packnut]

Opinion

Driver 29 nearing his end

Do you make this shit up as you go? This is ABSURD. The only reason that Donald Driver is a STAR receiver on the Green Bay Packers is because MIKE SHERMAN and his staff trained/coached him and gave him an opportunity.

Perhaps you don't remember history very well, but in 2001, Driver fought for the 5th receiver with a guy by the name of CHARLES LEE. Lee almost got the job, and instead got waived and signed with Tampa Bay, where he played mediocre football for a couple years and then was out of the league. The exact numbers escape me, but Driver caught an average of roughly 20 balls his first THREE seasons in the league.

Driver has been SOLID every single year since 2002, and is the ONLY receiver that has been consistently healthy since then. I shudder to think what this team would look like if it wasn't for Donald Driver.

Green 28 and then went out with a MAJOR injury
Walker 28 and went down with a MAJOR injury

And this is SHERMAN'S fault how? This is pointless. There is no other words for just how absurd this is.

Harris 29 and near the end

NEAR THE END? Last year was one of his best seasons. He just keeps getting better, IN SPITE, of no speed. You are barking up the wrong tree. This is one of 4 or 5 of Sherman's BEST moves as GM, and you're saying he's "over the hill" and that makes it a BAD deal? WTF?

You have to be making this shit up as you go. There is NO other explanation, other than knocking your intelligence level and I'm not going there today..

Give it up and move on...

It's the art of distortion and or just plan making shit up in order to suit one's opinions. It's used when trying to make a point that is pretty much worthless and without any substance.....

[retailguy]

Wow you're sensitive. It is possible to have a differing opinion.

You know what Zool - sometimes opinions are wrong, and completely disproven by facts, and I'm tired of going "sideways" into the damn alley with this guy over stupid statements he can't seem to stop making. If he just stuck with "reality" he's entitled to his opinion.

The problem is that reality isn't enough, so he must continually EXAGGERATE what is actually happening to make Thompson some sort of victim. The guy makes a couple million a year and is perfectly capable of living/dying by his own decisions.

If you don't like how I post, just move on, and resist having to point it out.

[BobDobbs]

I think there is something else to take Sherman to task for and that is his hiring and retention of staff. It is too early to judge McCarthy. But, Holmgren's assistants went on to pursue promotions. Andy Reid is the best example. But Sherman was a good TE Coach, Fritz and Rhodes were great D coodinators, Sherm Lewis was a good O coodinator.

Under Sherman I just don't think the staff was as strong, because he didn't take criticism well. That may not be right, but we certainly did not have the same quality of D-coodinator. Also, coaches seemed to jump ship more to take equivalent positions or positions on staff in the college ranks. I got the feeling that many coaches didn't want to work under Sherman or at least didn't feel that they would get a chance to be promoted.

Again we'll have to judge McCarthy later, but a big part of a Head Coaches job is hiring and delegation of responsibilities, not just Xs and Os.

[Patler]

That's a pretty good summary of the situation.

Sherman inherited a lot of core players either in their prime, or still on the way up. TT inherited those same players, but 5 years later when their best years were behind them. To be fair, there were a few additions by Sherman, like Barnett, Kampman and Walker, but overall it was an aging roster.

People tend to overlook the quality of some of the players that Wolf inherited, prefering to think he inherited nothing and built it from scratch. But, look at the list of players that were already in GB when Wolf came on board:

Don Majkowski
Ken Ruetgers
Rich Moran
Jackie Harris
Sterling Sharpe

Matt Brock
Bryce Paup
Brian Noble
Johnny Holland
Tony Bennett
Scott Stephen
Leroy Butler
Mark Lee
Mark Murphy
Chuck Cecil

Chris Jacke.

Especially at linebacker and the defensive backfield, the players were already there. The kicker was there.

Paup, Noble, Holland and Bennett is a pretty darn good group in a 3-4, with Stephen as a reserve.

Butler, Lee, Murphy and Cecil is a pretty good core of DBs.