You Heard It Here First

[Brohm]

Wasn't Woodson a June 1st cut? (don't remember if he was releassed outright).

[Joemailman]

If this team even sniffs at 8 wins, I'll be doing cartwheels in the street.

Youtube, here we come. :P Will you dress up as the Kool-Aid Guy?

Wasn't Woodson a June 1st cut? (don't remember if he was releassed outright).

Wasn't Woodson a UFA?

[RashanGary]

I'm pretty sure he was cut outright but it seemed nobody wanted to take a risk so he lasted quite a while.

[wist43]

First off, I give TT plenty of credit for the '05 draft... very good draft, that generally restocked the team - some of the restocking being necessary, however b/c TT punted both Walker and Wahle - and no, I don't want to reargue any of that.

Secondly, I think TT is a good talent evaluator... to date, I'd say his drafts have generally been better than a lot of Wolfe's.

So if I think TT is good talent evaluator, and I think he's done a respectable job of restocking the team, how can I dis him by saying he may be a bad GM???

I will use Wolfe, whom I considered to be a very good GM, as a comparison.

I'm inclined to think that TT is a better judge of college talent than Wolfe; however, Wolfe was no slouch in this area. That said, Wolfe was not shy about making moves to fill holes, and he was generally one of the most active GM's in the league in terms of trades, FA signings, and the utilization of draft picks to acquire veterans.

- Wolfe traded a 1st round pick for Favre - do I need to point out that TT would never, ever, have done that??? Even the most ardent TT apologist wouldn't argue this I don't think; he traded a 2nd rounder for Keith Jackson; he signed his entire starting defensive line off of the FA market - making the biggest FA signing ever (White) - do I need to point out that TT would never, ever, have done that???; he aggressively filled holes in FA whenever he needed to... Rison and Robinson come to mind.

In short, for me, Wolfe was the epitome of what a GM should be. He certainly had his share of blunders, and I was very critical of him at times, but in the end, I knew he knew football, I knew he knew how to build a team, and I knew he would always be aggressive in trying to either get his team to the top, or to keep them there. To him, FA and trades were tools to be used. Yes, he regarded the draft as the bedrock of his building plans, but he allowed himself to be flexible, and believed in his own abilities enough to take chances based on nothing more than his gut.

TT, on the other hand, has an almost pathological singlemindedness toward building a team - draft, draft, and more draft. His defenders will point out Woodson and Pickett, and that's valid I suppose, but I would tend to look at those two guys as aberrations 1) b/c they both worked out, and 2) b/c they languished somewhat inexplicably on the open market, with virtually no other active suitors.

Perhaps I can be accused of being impatient, but I think I can defend that by saying that my impatience is born out of the belief that Rodgers can't play - and that puts us at least 2-3 years down the line from where we are now, with no realistic shot at being markedly improved from where we are today.

I'm sure there are some out there that actually believe that Rodgers can step right in and perform at least as well as Favre, but I think that's incredibly wishful thinking. I think it's much more realistic to expect there to be a huge drop off at the most critical position on the team.

Combine that with some of the other things I've mentioned, i.e. Driver, Clifton, Woodson, and Harris all on the wrong side of 30; the already existing holes; and TT's penchant for conservatism...

Add it up, and I see a long few years ahead.




That nothwithstanding, I plan on enjoying every minute watching Favre break records this season... How's that for a ray of sunshine in my rain clouds???

[Bretsky]

First off, I give TT plenty of credit for the '05 draft... very good draft, that generally restocked the team - some of the restocking being necessary, however b/c TT punted both Walker and Wahle - and no, I don't want to reargue any of that.

Secondly, I think TT is a good talent evaluator... to date, I'd say his drafts have generally been better than a lot of Wolfe's.

So if I think TT is good talent evaluator, and I think he's done a respectable job of restocking the team, how can I dis him by saying he may be a bad GM???

I will use Wolfe, whom I considered to be a very good GM, as a comparison.

I'm inclinded to think that TT is a better judge of college talent than Wolfe; however, Wolfe was no slouch in this area. That said, Wolfe was not shy about making moves to fill holes, and he was generally one of the most active GM's in the league in terms of trades, FA signings, and the utilization of draft picks to acquire veterans.

- Wolfe traded a 1st round pick for Favre - do I need to point out that TT would never, ever, have done that??? Even the most ardent TT apologist wouldn't argue this I don't think; he traded a 2nd rounder for Keith Jackson; he signed his entire starting defensive line off of the FA market - making the biggest FA signing ever (White) - do I need to point out that TT would never, ever, have done that???; he aggressively filled holes in FA whenever he needed to... Rison and Robinson come to mind.

In short, for me, Wolfe was the epitome of what a GM should be. He certainly had his share of blunders, and I was very critical of him at times, but in the end, I knew he knew football, I knew he knew how to build a team, and I knew he would always be aggressive in trying to either get his team to the top, or to keep them there. To him, FA and trades were tools to be used. Yes, he regarded the draft as the bedrock of his building plans, but he allowed himself to be flexible, and believed in his own abilities enough to take chances based on nothing more than his gut.

TT, on the other hand, has an almost pathological singlemindedness toward building a team - draft, draft, and more draft. His defenders will point out Woodson and Pickett, and that's valid I suppose, but I would tend to look at those two guys as aberrations 1) b/c they both worked out, and 2) b/c they languished somewhat inexplicably on the open market, with virtually no other active suitors.

Combine that with some of the other things I've mentioned, i.e. Driver, Clifton, Woodson, and Harris all on the wrong side of 30; the already existing holes; and TT's penchant for conservatism...



That nothwithstanding, I plan on enjoying every minute watching Favre break records this season... How's that for a ray of sunshine in my rain clouds???

[wist43]

I think the main difference we have is that you think it's possible to go the the SB if we make the right moves and I think that there is no amount of moves that can be made that would bring this team to the SuperBowl right now.


Your bar is a little higher than mine, but I think it would be safe to say that if we finish the season with an 8-8 mark on a hard schedule that we are average and from there; you'd probably be willing to say Thompson is average even on the short-term and that is not including the long term implications; right?

If we can't agree on what success, failure and status quo is then all of this interesting debate will never have a form of measure. I enjoy these conversations so I'd like them to have some focus, know what I mean?

JH,

See my above post...

Question for you, how would you feel about our chances in the upcoming season if Aaron Rodgers is our starting QB???

To that question, I again say, "see my above post".

[RashanGary]

I agree with just about everything you said Wist. I draw the conclusion that it's better to take the risk and start over and you draw the conclusion that it's time to take a shot.

I'll argue that when Sherm took the shot we were a lot closer adn I don't even mind it that much becaue he got pretty close. Still, he took a good team with a 33 year old Favre adn a 25 year old Green and dumped all his resources into winning right NOW. If he failed with that team, I strongly feel we'd fail again.

It's sort of gloomy but the only thing we can do now is start over and build the base. Maybe some day we'll have a chance to take that shot again.

[RashanGary]

I agree Wist and the question makes a ton of sense. I've really given up on this team short term.

I've fully given up, even more then you apparently because it never crosses my mind that Favre will win the SB. I just look at it as we missed the oppertunity and we're starting over.

[retailguy]

I think the main difference we have is that you think it's possible to go the the SB if we make the right moves and I think that there is no amount of moves that can be made that would bring this team to the SuperBowl right now.


Your bar is a little higher than mine, but I think it would be safe to say that if we finish the season with an 8-8 mark on a hard schedule that we are average and from there; you'd probably be willing to say Thompson is average even on the short-term and that is not including the long term implications; right?

If we can't agree on what success, failure and status quo is then all of this interesting debate will never have a form of measure. I enjoy these conversations so I'd like them to have some focus, know what I mean?

Again, I think you mis-understand my position. I didn't think the Packers were headed to the Super Bowl at any point this offseason. That being said, if they don't play competitive football and get into the playoffs they CAN'T go to the Super Bowl which is the current situation as I see it.

I think a few free agents, combined with a re-signed Ahman Green would have made it possible, and dare I say, even likely that this team could have competed for a playoff spot.

In 2002, no one with half a brain thought that the Patriots could win a super bowl much less compete in the Playoffs. Two years ago, no one again thought that the Steelers (who were the 6th seed) would make it either. But, it happened. Not necessarily likely, but it happened.

You position your team to be competitive and then hope for a bit of luck, some team spirit, and a playoff run. Isn't that better than trumpeting "our hope" for 8-8 and "some improvement", with a playoff berth "just a few years away"?

If you want to "frame" this discussion, good luck, because the minute you "land" a point with someone, they zig zag right into another point, instead of considering what you've got to say, or admitting your point had merit. For me, I'm somewhat happy with the "long-term" direction of this football team.

I'm very unhappy with the 2007 version of this team, that I see today.

I'm very disappointed in the Ted Thompson who "broadcasts his view on free agency", I think he's got a lot to learn about being a "GM" instead of a talent evaluator, and I think he's missing and undervaluing a very useful resource in building a winning football team.

I furthermore, think that he is "sending" an unintended message to all NFL free agents, and that is, "don't go to GB unless you're desperate", because that "guy doesn't like your type".

If, and I say IF, Moss "chose" NE over GB, don't you think it's POSSIBLE that it had to do with "perception" of Green Bay? We make decisions on perception all the time, perhaps, Randy, and several other free agents had the "perception" that they wouldn't be treated fairly here, because Ted has been so outspoken about the "evils" of free agency? How does that help build a winning football team? Wouldn't it be better to keep those views to himself? Why broadcast that, and then clam up about everything else? Why not just clam up about everything?

[Lurker64]

Realistically, I think that TT is learning on the job. This is his first NFL GM job, and he's only on his third year, so he's not exactly a finished product. I'm personally convinced that he's gradually figuring out how to manage free agency. The last couple of years Thompson brought in virtually every bargain basement guy he could find (Gardner, Boerighter, Klemm, Roman, etc.) and asked them to fill holes. I think you, I, and Ted Thompson will all admit that wasn't working. But the thing he did last year that he didn't do the previous year was key in on several free agents he was interested in and pursue them with diligence (Pickett was picked up short into the offseason when he had several suitors, Woodson was a drawn out negotiation, and we were in the Arrington sweepstakes up until the bitter end.)

So what I hope he's learned is that you can't really expect mediocre guys to come in from outside the organization and instantly fill holes (hopefully he's learned that from Manuel as well), but the occasional special free agent can come in and instantly improve you at a position.

So maybe Thompson looked out at this year's FA crop and saw a bunch of guys like Allen, Roman, Boerighter, Klemm, Gardner and the lot and thought "I've brought in guys like this and they didn't do anything" so passed on the lot of them. Which was a good idea when it came to a lot of the guys available in free agency. The money we would have spent on those kinds of damaged veterans who will either get cut in camp or limp along on the roster without contributing is better in frontloaded contracts and extensions for our good players.

What I do think TT's mistake this offseason, and something he needs to learn about, was that when there is a player you do think would make a sizeable enough contribution to actually want the guy, he needs to push a little harder to get the guy. The one fullback who ended up in Oakland would have been a good fit here, and Thompson apparently wanted the guy. Now we'll never know why we didn't get him. Maybe it's not Ted's fault and the guy just wanted to live in California and not Wisconsin. Maybe Ted was right and the guy's not as good as his contract anyway. But maybe the guy would have been a major improvement on the roster and we missed out on him because Ted wouldn't bend or push a little more than he did.

So Thompson makes mistakes, this is understandable he's never been a GM before. But since he's new at this, we can't be sure he won't learn from his mistakes and improve on them. He unquestionably did a better job in his second offseason than his first, and maybe this offseason will turn out better than we think (it's not over, after all.) If it doesn't, we can hope that Ted learns from his mistakes and corrects them, whatever they are.

The fact is though that nobody, not us, not the rest of the NFL, not even TT himself has seen enough of Ted Thompson's GM work to really know if he can, or can't build a contender.

[MJZiggy]

Wist, your post made me curious about something: You said that Thompson may be a better college talent evaluator than Wolf. Wolf saw Favre's value and it's said that the reason he went after him is because he saw the college film and knew what Atlanta had rotting on third sting. Wouldn't Thompson have been able to see that as well? I'm not saying he would have pulled the trigger, but I'm just thinking he might have known Favre was good enough to be worth a first round pick...

[Scott Campbell]

.........b/c they (Pickett and Woodson) languished somewhat inexplicably on the open market, with virtually no other active suitors.

I thought Pickett signed in the first week of free agency. That doesn't qualifiy as "languishing" by my definition.

[MJZiggy]

.........b/c they (Pickett and Woodson) languished somewhat inexplicably on the open market, with virtually no other active suitors.

I thought Pickett signed in the first week of free agency. That doesn't qualifiy as "languishing" by my definition.

And the Rams wanted him.

[Bretsky]

I agree Wist and the question makes a ton of sense. I've really given up on this team short term.

I've fully given up, even more then you apparently because it never crosses my mind that Favre will win the SB. I just look at it as we missed the oppertunity and we're starting over.

Ted has broken me; I've given up as well.

I thought if he hit free agency hard last year with a couple more players (like Witherspoon and Hope for those that will question me), he could use last years and this years draft and make two serious runs if Favre stays another two.

I'm at the point where I understand TT did not agree with that and my expectations and hopes have been modified.

[retailguy]

Wist, your post made me curious about something: You said that Thompson may be a better college talent evaluator than Wolf. Wolf saw Favre's value and it's said that the reason he went after him is because he saw the college film and knew what Atlanta had rotting on third sting. Wouldn't Thompson have been able to see that as well? I'm not saying he would have pulled the trigger, but I'm just thinking he might have known Favre was good enough to be worth a first round pick...

he probably would have known and then PASSED because he viewed the price as too high...