You Heard It Here First

[wist43]

We're way into "woulda, coulda, shoulda" here, but...

I agree that White was a once in a lifetime signing and that a player of his calibur is very unlikely to ever hit the open market again... if you remember, White hit the open market as a result of a lawsuit that he had filed.

Just don't see how TT could bring himself to enter into a bidding war for any player, so I don't see how he could possibly have been successful in getting White to sign with GB.

At the time, White signed a 4 yr, $16 million contract... outrageous $$$ for the time - don't think TT would ever even consider breaking the bank like that. He would simply continue to count his pennies, and look forward to the next draft.

As for Favre, I'm positive TT never have traded a 1st for Favre, and I'm not sure that he would have drafted him either. If you remember, Favre was actually considered a character risk coming out of college.

He had a reputation as a partier, and had the car accident in his background. When he got to Atlanta he did nothing to dispel the doubts that some had about his ability to focus and do what was necessary to become - well, to become Brett Favre.

As for the actual trade that brought Favre to the Packers, Wolfe had originally offered a 2nd I believe, but the Falcons kept dickering around wanting another pick, or future picks, or another player, etc... Wolfe got tired of dickering with them and said, "to hell with it, how about a 1st???"... the rest is history.

Ultimately, I don't think TT has the moxie to make either of those moves.

[HarveyWallbangers]

At the time, White signed a 4 yr, $16 million contract... outrageous $$$ for the time - don't think TT would ever even consider breaking the bank like that. He would simply continue to count his pennies, and look forward to the next draft.

I don't know how you could be sure on this. He has gotten in bidding wars for players, and he reportedly even offered the most money at times (Vinatieri and others), and still lost those players.

As for Favre, I'm positive TT never have traded a 1st for Favre, and I'm not sure that he would have drafted him either. If you remember, Favre was actually considered a character risk coming out of college.

True. To be fair though, is there any other GM who would have taken the chance that Wolf did? Spend a 1st round pick on a 2nd round player who didn't look good and had a reputation as a party animal. It seemed insane at the time--although it ended up cementing Wolf's reputation.

[Cheesehead Craig]

It's hard to judge the Wolf FA era to TT's. Far more teams have much more money than they did then. There's simply more competition for the FA $ that TT has to deal with that Wolfe simply didn't have to.

Do I wish TT would have been more aggresive in FA? Yes, to an extent. Wist made some great points on how Wolf knew how to straddle that line of draft vs FA and TT hasn't yet. But arguably, TT has not had the FA crop to pick from that Wolf did. But the point is still quite valid by Wist.

The way TT is building the Packers reminds me of how the Brewers are being built. They got great draft picks for years, let them grow and get better while the team was taking their lumps. Now, the young kids are playing outstanding and they mixed in a vet here and there (Suppan and Estrada) and that puts them to elite status. The team is then set given the young kids are locked up for several years and rather cheaply. If he can get the same type of success as the Brewers are currently having, I'd be happy with that.

[pbmax]

The coaches thought he was a lost cause. Herock still thought he was a round one talent, but if the coaches aren't going to take him seriously, then he really just rots on the bench.

So the first round pick was a way to let Herock make the best out of a bad situation. He might not have been ready to give up save for that first round pick.

Actually, knowing how much Atlanta hated Favre, Wolf probably could have had him for a 2nd or 3rd round pick.

[mngolf19]

I doubt Thompson would have gotten him. I think Thompson could build a team like San Diego though.

SD was also good because of Marty. Now that he is gone, don't expect nearly as much from them. Marty wasn't good in playoffs, but he could make a team great in regular season.

[woodbuck27]

Re: You Heard It Here First

This will go down as a good draft class. That's going out on a limb for most people, but I'll say it now. I'm optimistic and realistic. I don't like how Ted Thompson has handled FA this offseason. I understand that he probably tried to get a lot more guys than we even know about, but he wasn't successful.

However, I can't think this is a bad draft--since we drafted so many guys that I liked when I did my pre-draft research (Harrell, Jackson, Rouse, Barbre, Clowney). I liked the Crosby pick. I liked the TE in the last round. Not sure about Jones or Wynn. I didn't really research Jones, and I didn't like Wynn much, but maybe he can be a good hybrid RB/FB (like Da Poop). Don't like the Bishop pick because I'm not sure he has the speed to succeed in our scheme. I think Johnson and Simpson have a good shot at making the team over him--provided they stay clean. Not sure about the Hall pick, but we could use some help on ST. Plus, he provides some roster flexibility with FB and LB background.

Overall, I think this class will fall somewhere between 2005 (hard to say; looks average, but Rodgers could change that and losing Murphy really hurt) and 2006 (looks very promising). Grades are silly, I know, but looking back in 5 years, I'm going to predict this will look like a solid B+ draft class.

Actually I've heard it from a shitload of analysts on the Internet

Then again many of them don't like it as well.

I'm taking a new approach. Knowing we have little chance of contending in the near future, my expectations are low. It feels much better.


Cheers,
B

So maybe you could join my club?

The Realistic Realist's Club.

Before a team can be consistent and competitive it needs certain basics:

A franchise QB. We are about to lose our's and fr. all I've seen fr. Rodgers to date. How can I be excited about Aaron Rodgers? He's not that.

The team has to be able to put points up on the board with solid weapons and attack. The only talented weapons we currently have on 'O' are Favre and Driver and they don't fit into TT's agenda or plan. They are like two good tires that will soon wear out and will have to be replaced via the TT way. Via systematic coaching or TT's developmentle plan.

I prefer talent be the basis of recruiting a team by using all options. TT's way is drafting heavy ( I don't see value in numbers or trading down for 6th and seven Rd. picks).

He errors by not bringing in players all the time to upgrade the team ( see Bill Belichick).

He errors by undermining the value in recruiting FA's.

Is TT a drafting genious? The jury is still out on that.

Can TT handle a CAP? Yes he has proven that. He's certainly careful with the money. Is he too conservative with the money?

TT has demonstrated that he recognizes players value to the team by extending contracts and retaining valuable FA's. ie Al Harris,Cullen Jenkins and Nick Barnett and in the nick of time he saved Aaron Kampman fr. being a Viking.

Overall to date I see a man that isn't going to be deemed a great GM. ie win a Super Bowl. He's quite frankly lacking in the personality Dept. The word is out on his plodding cheap ways .The NFL see's how he's betrayed the Packer team to date and that has to make anyone uncomfortable with talent to sell to ever come to Green Bay.

TT always says.

'' Geee, I don't know why this or that player came in to Green Bay and departed and signed elsewhere. ''

I maintain that he's not aggressive enough. Personality challenged in that regard. He's a procrastinator or simply way too cautious with CAP money. He doesn't demonstrate an ability to judge talent need for our offense.

Is Ted Thompson hardnosed or incapable of learning and changing? That is the key question every Packer fan has to ask themselves in respect to us enjoying a really competitive team again.

There are so many here that give him the benefit of the doubt. THE ''well. . lets wait and see approach.'' There are alot of ways to evaluate TT's ability to succeed as our GM than waitng for his draft class's to mature. The verdict on his 2005 draft? Will that be in this season?

Ohhhh. We have to wait on Aaron Rodgers. You had better wait on Marviel Underwood. That time is better invested.

How much DAM time do YOU have? I write that in all reaspect.

GO PACKERS !!

[Rastak]

Re: You Heard It Here First

So maybe you could join my club?

The Realistic Realist's Club.

LOL.......

[Fritz]

I'd like to start by saying that this has been the most enjoyable thread I've read in a long time. I especially appreciate the comments by Wist, RetailGuy, Bretsky and other not-big-TT-supporters here because I don't agree with them but respect the thought and logic behind their posts. I just get a little irked and annoyed by (other) posters who claim occasionally that Thompson is deliberately sabotaging Favre and thus the team by not drafting/trading for offensive players; th at somehow TT will not be happy until Favre retires so it can be Ted's team. So, as I said, it is enjoyable to read rational, thoughtful posts that critique the job TT is doing and not his motives.

I also think other people here have done a nice job refuting some of Wist's points comparing TT to Wolf - i.e., as Wolf himself has said that kind of trading, wheeling-dealing that he did vis a vis Reggie White and others is well-nigh imposible in today's NFL, what with the sal cap. Harvey (I believe) and others also pointed out that TT has gone aggressively after free agents and has in some instances offered more than what those FA's eventualy signed for (Vinateri, Arrington), but those players chose to go elsewhere. In Justin Griffiths' case this year, another thread suggests that one of his coaches from Atlanta went to the team Griffiths (eventually) signed with, and Griffiths signed with that team (Oakland?) because of that coach.

As for the "woulda TT have had the cojones to trade for Favre?" well, we'll never know. But it is possible he would have offered less, and who knows - maybe the dude woulda brought Favre here for less than what Wolf offered. I think TT is more patient than most GM's, which pays off in the late draft rounds (when, it seems to me, other GM's seem to hurry their picks or be willing to trade them away because, I don't know, they don't value those picks), and this might have paid off with Favre. But we never will know.

Ultimately I disagree with Wist and RetailGuy - I believe in the way TT is going about his job, both short and long term. I don't agree with everything he's done, though - I thought he erred terribly with Javon Walker. I think, right after Walker got hurt in the Detroit game, TT should have gone to him and said "Javon, we believe in you. We know you work you azz off, and we believe you will come back better than ever. And to show you that we believe in you, we'd like to re-do your deal...." and so on. On the other hand, those who think he coulda re-signed Wahle and/or Rivera are trying to revise history. All the articles in the JSO and Press Gazette mentioned at that time that Wahle was flat out going to be too rich for the Packers' sal cap, given the way Shermy had managed it.

Anyway. My main point here is that it is refreshing to read this thread. Posters from opposite sides are making excellent points, being rational, being thoughtful.

Thanks to all who have been posting on this thread.

[woodbuck27]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/2007/draft/teams/packers.html

Round Pick (Overall) Player Position School

1 16 (16) Justin Harrell DT Tennessee

Justin Harrell SELECTED BY: Green Bay Packers Round 1(16)

SI Grade = 3.93

PositionT Class:Sr School: Tennessee Conference: Southeastern Ht., Wt.: 6.4.5, 305 40 Time:5.10

BIOGRAPHY: Three-year starter who totaled seven tackles in three games last season, after being sidelined with a torn bicep. Awarded All-Conference honors as a junior after totaling 39/7.5/2.5.

POSITIVES: Tough, athletic defender who plays with top effort. Gets off the snap with a quick first step, is fluid changing direction and slides off blocks to make the play. Bends his knees, gets leverage on opponents and is rarely off his feet.

NEGATIVES: Gets wired in blocks and is slow to shed. Makes most of his plays up the open field in a small area.

ANALYSIS: A hard-working lineman with a lot of physical skill, Harrell could be one of the most underrated players in this draft. His injury last season will decrease his final grade, yet he offers starting possibilities as either a two-gap lineman or as a conventional tackle.

PROJECTION: Early Second Round

Comment woodbuck27:

Generally this pick was considered a reach. This was TT's BPA at pick 16 ignoring our need on offense. Note that TT may go need in his second round pick.



2 31 (63) Brandon Jackson RB Nebraska

Brandon Jackson SELECTED BY: Green Bay Packers Round 2(31)

SI Grade = 3.61

Position:RB Class: Jr School:Nebraska Conference:Big Twelve
Ht., Wt.: 5-10, 210 40 Time:4.53

BIOGRAPHY: All-Conference selection last season after starting nine games and totaling 188/989/8 rushing with 33/313/2 receiving.

POSITIVES: Talented ball-handler who produces in a variety of ways. Displays solid running vision, follows blocks and finds the cutback lanes. Displays a burst of speed, possesses the ability to make defenders miss and runs with an aggressive style.

NEGATIVES: Must improve his ball security. Not a big back who picks up yardage after initial contact.

ANALYSIS: Jackson moves on to the next level after just a single productive season. He does not possess the size to be a feature runner, but his ability to catch the ball out of the backfield as well as his running style makes him well-suited to be a third-down back.

PROJECTION: Late Third Round

Comment woodbuck27:

I didn't like it that TT traded down fr. pick No. 47 to this slot. There was alot of offensive talent available to him at No. 47. Trading down 16 slots for an additional 6th Rd. pick? Why ?


3 14 (78) James Jones WR San Jose State

James Jones SELECTED BY: Green Bay Packers Round 3(14)

SI Grade = 3.38

Position:WR Class:Sr School:San Jose State Conference:Western Athletic Ht., Wt.: 6-1, 208 40 Time:4.54

BIOGRAPHY: Three-year starter awarded All-Conference honors as a senior after topping the team with receiving numbers of 70/893/10 as well as averaging 11 yards on 11 punt returns. Totaled 30 receptions as a junior.

POSITIVES: Nice-sized wideout coming off a tremendous senior campaign. Quick in all aspects of his game, displaying a lot of natural skill. Uses his frame to shield away defenders, adjusts to the errant throw and looks the ball into his hands. Displays strong hands.

NEGATIVES: Marginal playing speed and is not a deep threat. Just average production until his senior campaign.

ANALYSIS: A big, strong, receiver, Jones turned himself into an NFL prospect last season. Gives effort in all aspects of the game and could develop into a productive third wideout.

PROJECTION: Middle Sixth Round


3 25 (89) Aaron Rouse S Virginia Tech

Aaron Rouse SELECTED BY: Green Bay Packers Round 3(25)

SI Grade = 3.71

Position:S Class:Sr School:Virginia Tech Conference:Atlantic Coast
Ht., Wt.: 6-4, 223 40 Time:4.59

BIOGRAPHY: Two-year starter who posted 57/1/2 as a senior after career-best numbers of 77/4/5 the prior season.

POSITIVES: Athletic strong-safety prospect with terrific size/speed numbers. Fierce defending the run, has a burst of closing speed and aggressively takes on ball carriers. Shows range in centerfield, plays with good explosion and a large degree of suddenness.

NEGATIVES: Played poorly as a senior. Did not show a decisive move to the throw, was late arriving on the scene in coverage and generally got caught out of position. Inefficient, and does not take the best angles to the action.

ANALYSIS: After a breakout junior campaign, much was expected from Rouse last season. Played well at the Senior Bowl, and offers the tools to be used as a strong safety in the NFL, yet must quickly get his game back on track.

PROJECTION: Early Third Round

Comment woodbuck27:

This could end up being an excellent value pick. He's a tweener and can possibly contribute at SS or LBer.


4 20 (119) Allen Barbre G Missouri Southern State

Allen Barbre SELECTED BY: Green Bay Packers Round 4(20)

SI Grade = 3.86

Position:G Class:Sr School:Missouri Southern State Conferenceivision II Ht., Wt.: 6-4, 300 40 Time:4.89

BIOGRAPHY: Moved into the starting lineup midway through his freshman season. Awarded All-Conference honors after his junior and senior campaigns and was an All-American last year.

POSITIVES: Athletic pass-protecting blocker with a good amount of upside. Patient, effectively uses angles and slides his feet laterally. Strong at the point, seals defenders from the action and plays with leverage. Flashes power as a run blocker.

NEGATIVES: Late with his hands. Not fluid and struggles to adjust.

ANALYSIS: A productive small-school blocker with the tools to play at the next level, Barbre is a developmental prospect who could start at either a guard or tackle in two seasons.

PROJECTION: Late Second Round

Comment woodbuck27:

Is this a good value pick. What was his Wonderlik score? Does that even matter?


5 20 (157) David Clowney WR Virginia Tech

David Clowney SELECTED BY: Green Bay Packers Round 5(20)

SI Grade = N/A

Position:WR Class:Sr School:Virginia Tech Conference:Atlantic Coast
Ht., Wt.: 6-0.5, 188 40 Time:4.36

BIOGRAPHY: Two-year starter who is also a sprinter on the school's track team. Senior totals were 34/424 after 34/619/3 the prior year.

POSITIVES: Developing receiver with terrific playing speed. Displays sharpness running routes, gets separation from opponents, offering the quarterback a nice target. Nicely adjusts to the errant throw and makes the reception in stride.

NEGATIVES: Undersized and struggles against larger defenders. Gives effort blocking, but is not effective. Marginally productive the past two seasons because of the rotational system Virginia Tech uses at wideout.

ANALYSIS: Athletically gifted, Clowney offers potential as a third receiver at the next level if he improves his consistency.

PROJECTION: Middle Third Round

Comment woodbuck27: Could turn out as a solid value pick and he's a burner. Wondering if he has punt return skills?


6 17 (191) Korey Hall OLB Boise State

Korey Hall SELECTED BY: Green Bay Packers Round 6(17)

SI Grade = N/A

Position:OLB Class:Sr School:Boise State Conference:Western Athletic
Ht., Wt.: 6-0.5, 230 40 Time:4.85

BIOGRAPHY: Four-year starter awarded varying degrees of All-Conference honors since his freshman season. WAC Defensive Player of the Year as a senior after totaling 105/6.5/3.5 and adding six interceptions. Junior totals included a career-high 106 tackles.

POSITIVES: Omnipresent college linebacker with marginal size/speed. Remains disciplined with assignments and shows top instincts. Aggressive, plays faster than his 40 time and is constantly around the action, making positive plays. Gets depth on drops.

NEGATIVES: Undersized and easily blocked at the point of attack. Does not show much suddenness to his game.

ANALYSIS: An overachiever who gets the most from his abilities, Hall's attitude, toughness and football intelligence will help him find a spot at the next level.

PROJECTION: Undrafted Free Agent

Comment woodbuck27:

Why didn't TT go TE with one of these three 6th Rd. picks?


6 18 (192) Desmond Bishop ILB California

Desmond Bishop SELECTED BY: Green Bay Packers Round 6(18)

SI Grade = N/A

Position:ILB Class:Sr School:California Conference:Pacific-10
Ht., Wt.: 6-2, 240 40 Time:4.81

BIOGRAPHY: Junior college transfer who started the past two seasons, winning All-Conference honors after each campaign. Led the team in tackles as a senior, posting career numbers of 126/15/3, while also intercepting three passes and breaking up two more.

POSITIVES: Intense, competitive, run-defending linebacker who works best in the box. Hard-hitting, puts his shoulders into ball carriers and likes to intimidate opponents. Patient, stays with assignments and takes excellent angles to the action.

NEGATIVES: Does not always play under control or within himself. Marginal lateral range, slow to the flanks and struggles in coverage.

ANALYSIS: A two-down defender with a nose for the football, Bishop is an underrated linebacker who will be downgraded because of his limitations in coverage. Has the intelligence and attitude to produce as a rookie on special teams, and could eventually develop.

PROJECTION: Early Seventh Round

Comment woodbuck27:

There was a pretty good player at TE available to TT here. Wondering why he would pass on this TE?


6 19 (193) Mason Crosby PK Colorado

Mason Crosby SELECTED BY: Green Bay Packers Round 6(19)

SI Grade = N/A

Position:PK Class:Sr School:Colorado Conference:Big Twelve
Ht., Wt.: 6-1, 213 40 Time:5.28

BIOGRAPHY: Moved into the starting lineup as a freshman and has been awarded All-Conference honors since his sophomore campaign, while being named an All-American the past two years. Connected on 67.9% of his field goals last season, with a long of 56 yards.

POSITIVES: Big-legged kicker who is the best prospect at his position in almost a half-dozen years. Gets tremendous lift on field goals, consistently hits them from long yardage and handles pressure well. Comes through in clutch situations.

NEGATIVES: Does not consistently follow through on the longer field goals, which hampers the trajectory of his kicks. Struggled with his kickoffs during Senior Bowl practices in adverse conditions.

ANALYSIS: A productive and consistent kicker in college, Crosby is a legitimate first-day pick who can impact a team during his rookie campaign.

PROJECTION: Late Third Round

Comment woodbuck27:

This pick is considered excellent value here. He could be our PKer for some time?


7 18 (228) DeShawn Wynn RB Florida

DeShawn Wynn SELECTED BY: Green Bay Packers Round 7(18)

SI Grade = N/A

Position:RB Class:Sr School:Florida Conference:Southeastern
Ht., Wt.: 5-10.5, 232 40 Time:4.47

BIOGRAPHY: Part-time starter the past two seasons, leading Florida in rushing as a senior with 143/699/6. Junior totals were 130/620/7. Averaged more than 4.8 yards per carry the past two seasons.

POSITIVES: Strong runner who flashes the ability to take over games. Powerful, picks up a lot of yardage off initial contact and falls forward when tackled. Shows the ability to cut back in a small area and keep runs alive.

NEGATIVES: Not known as a great practice player or hard worker. Not elusive, and does not create yardage. Displays a lot of hesitation to his game. Does not play to his 40 time.

ANALYSIS: Possessing the athleticism and skill to be a feature runner at the next level, Wynn is an underachiever of sorts who never took his game to the next level. Teases scouts with his ability and must start to consistently play at a high level.

PROJECTION: Middle Fifth Round

Comment woodbuck27:

Intriguing pick ! Very quick guy !!


7* 33 (243) Clark Harris TE Rutgers

Clark Harris SELECTED BY: Green Bay Packers Round 7(33)

SI Grade = N/A

Position:TE Class:Sr School:Rutgers Conference:Big East
Ht., Wt.: 6-5, 254 40 Time:4.85

BIOGRAPHY: Three-year starter awarded All-Conference honors since his sophomore campaign. Senior receiving totals were 38/294 after 38/584/4 as a junior. Career-best numbers of 53/725/5 came as a sophomore.

POSITIVES: Consistent receiver who projects as a number-two tight end. Fluid releasing off the line, reads defenses and sneaks it downfield. Finds the open seam, consistently makes himself an available target and displays good eye/hand coordination.

NEGATIVES: Not aggressive with blocking assignments and gets marginal results. Does not have the speed to be a true deep threat.

ANALYSIS: Harris lacks the size/speed to be anything other than a backup. His production as a long snapper last year could help him secure a spot on a roster.

PROJECTION: Middle Fifth Round

Comment woodbuck27:

TT may have served the team better if he had gone TE in the 6th Rd. and gotten us a prospect on the OL here.

GO PACKERS !!

[woodbuck27]

Re: You Heard It Here First

This will go down as a good draft class. That's going out on a limb for most people, but I'll say it now. I'm optimistic and realistic. I don't like how Ted Thompson has handled FA this offseason. I understand that he probably tried to get a lot more guys than we even know about, but he wasn't successful.

However, I can't think this is a bad draft--since we drafted so many guys that I liked when I did my pre-draft research (Harrell, Jackson, Rouse, Barbre, Clowney). I liked the Crosby pick. I liked the TE in the last round. Not sure about Jones or Wynn. I didn't really research Jones, and I didn't like Wynn much, but maybe he can be a good hybrid RB/FB (like Da Poop). Don't like the Bishop pick because I'm not sure he has the speed to succeed in our scheme. I think Johnson and Simpson have a good shot at making the team over him--provided they stay clean. Not sure about the Hall pick, but we could use some help on ST. Plus, he provides some roster flexibility with FB and LB background.

Overall, I think this class will fall somewhere between 2005 (hard to say; looks average, but Rodgers could change that and losing Murphy really hurt) and 2006 (looks very promising). Grades are silly, I know, but looking back in 5 years, I'm going to predict this will look like a solid B+ draft class.

Harvey with all respect.

Guessing that you didn't read TOP HAT's thread???

In any case. READ it again. . . carefully.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Did the "experts" not like our draft class? Boo hoo!

[the_idle_threat]

Did the "experts" not like our draft class? Boo hoo!

[woodbuck27]

Did the "experts" not like our draft class? Boo hoo!

Screw the experts.

I'm a dedicated and informed Packer and NFL fan.

TT neglected our 'O' by not getting two quality talents at the top of the draft. After that he did only fair.

[Fritz]

Did the "experts" not like our draft class? Boo hoo!

Screw the experts.

I'm a dedicated and informed Packer and NFL fan.

TT neglected our 'O' by not getting two quality talents at the top of the draft. After that he did only fair.

Woodbuck, we shall see - in three years. Until then we can only postulate.