What If: Could Ted Have Kept Wahle, McKenzie and Walker?

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

With McKenzie, I still don't know what his problem was. I heard money, and I also heard something about him not liking the team. If his problem was with the team, theirs not a lot TT could have done.

I'm not so sure. Ted eventually fired Sherman. If Sherman the coach is gone, and Sherman the GM is gone, would McKenzie have considered staying if Ted threw him a bone the way he threw Harris a bone?

Yes maybe he would of assuming his problem was completly with Sherman. Am not so sure it was though.

[SD GB fan]

its to hard to say but i think we could have kept walker. im saying this based on wells jenkins, kampman, and barnett's signing. if TT has the cap space it seems like he doesnt have any problem signing young players. as of now, i dont think we lost any young players to FA. and the walker incident was more than just TT not wanting to sign him. walker agreed to play for the year and TT wanted the time to free up cap space. but the freak accident pretty much broke all friendly ties between walker and the packers. had that injury not occurred, walker would probably still be a packer.

[Patler]

Re: What If: Could Ted Have Kept Wahle, McKenzie and Walker

1. Ron Wolf had to give up a 2nd round draft pick to take Mike Wahle in the supplemental draft; think TT would have did that ??

2. Mike Sherman traded UP to get Javon Walker

yes, that's right...."up"

Think TT would have given up a draft pick to do that ?

IMO we'd for sure have never had Walker and probably not Wahle either.
But I guess if you want to start the juices flowing again with this thread IMO you've done a good job.

B

1. Why wouldn't TT have taken Wahle? It was no different than drafting him, it was just not done at the normal time. TT may have even had a hand in the evaluation of Wahle. TT was still working for Wolf in GB in 1998 when Wahle was drafted. He didn't go to Seattle until the 2000 season.

2. Regarding Walker, did Sherman have to trade up to get him, or would Walker have been available in the Packers regular spot? Sherman traded up from #28 to pick Walker at #20. No other team picked a wide receiver after that until the 2nd round. Don't get me wrong, I think it was a very good pick, but at the time many thought Wlker was a 2nd round talent, not a first round talent. He may not have had to make the trade to get him. Heck, maybe he could have traded DOWN, and still gotten Walker!

[Bretsky]

Re: What If: Could Ted Have Kept Wahle, McKenzie and Walker

1. Ron Wolf had to give up a 2nd round draft pick to take Mike Wahle in the supplemental draft; think TT would have did that ??

2. Mike Sherman traded UP to get Javon Walker

yes, that's right...."up"

Think TT would have given up a draft pick to do that ?

IMO we'd for sure have never had Walker and probably not Wahle either.
But I guess if you want to start the juices flowing again with this thread IMO you've done a good job.

B

1. Why wouldn't TT have taken Wahle? It was no different than drafting him, it was just not done at the normal time. TT may have even had a hand in the evaluation of Wahle. TT was still working for Wolf in GB in 1998 when Wahle was drafted. He didn't go to Seattle until the 2000 season.

2. Regarding Walker, did Sherman have to trade up to get him, or would Walker have been available in the Packers regular spot? Sherman traded up from #28 to pick Walker at #20. No other team picked a wide receiver after that until the 2nd round. Don't get me wrong, I think it was a very good pick, but at the time many thought Wlker was a 2nd round talent, not a first round talent. He may not have had to make the trade to get him. Heck, maybe he could have traded DOWN, and still gotten Walker!

If we needed a WR TT would have drafted Defense

[Scott Campbell]

Re: What If: Could Ted Have Kept Wahle, McKenzie and Walker

Heck, maybe he could have traded DOWN, and still gotten Walker!

Same story with Barnett.

[Bretsky]

Re: What If: Could Ted Have Kept Wahle, McKenzie and Walker

1. Ron Wolf had to give up a 2nd round draft pick to take Mike Wahle in the supplemental draft; think TT would have did that ??

2. Mike Sherman traded UP to get Javon Walker

yes, that's right...."up"

Think TT would have given up a draft pick to do that ?

IMO we'd for sure have never had Walker and probably not Wahle either.
But I guess if you want to start the juices flowing again with this thread IMO you've done a good job.

B

1. Why wouldn't TT have taken Wahle? It was no different than drafting him, it was just not done at the normal time. TT may have even had a hand in the evaluation of Wahle. TT was still working for Wolf in GB in 1998 when Wahle was drafted. He didn't go to Seattle until the 2000 season.

2. Regarding Walker, did Sherman have to trade up to get him, or would Walker have been available in the Packers regular spot? Sherman traded up from #28 to pick Walker at #20. No other team picked a wide receiver after that until the 2nd round. Don't get me wrong, I think it was a very good pick, but at the time many thought Wlker was a 2nd round talent, not a first round talent. He may not have had to make the trade to get him. Heck, maybe he could have traded DOWN, and still gotten Walker!

Maybe you are right on Wahle; maybe not. I get the impression that TT would be very very conservative in giving up a pick to nab somebody in the supplemental draft. Maybe the turtle will prove me wrong going forward. He hasn't bit on the supplemental draft yet so we have no evidence either way.

Sherman noted he was relatively sure one team (it might have been Phily) was interested in Walker; I thought word came out after the draft they were also considering him.

[Scott Campbell]

Re: What If: Could Ted Have Kept Wahle, McKenzie and Walker

I get the impression that TT would be very very conservative in giving up a pick to nab somebody in the supplemental draft.

His conservatism might have cost us in a different way. Rather than passing on the supplemental draft altogether, he might have placed a 3 round value on Wahle and some other team might have taken him before we had the chance.

On the other hand, maybe Ted gets him with that 3rd.

[RashanGary]

I don't think Thompson would have done some of the things Wolf did and everything sort of fell in place for that SB Packer team. They never became a dynasty because we relied a lot on aging guys and it fell down a little but the counter to that is "would Wolf have done what SD has done?" They built a powerhouse through the draft. Had Wolf been there making bold moves in this era he might have ended up like Dallas or Washington.

I think it's differentn eras and there are too many variables to say one is right over the other. I belive in Thompsons phylosophy in this era but during that first coule hesitant years of FA, Wolfs' attidute sure paid off. I just doubt that he'd have that success today.

[pbmax]

As a follow up to Ziggy's point/question, Sherman and Wahle made it clear that the balloon payment was in there for a reason, Wahle didn't expect to see it, he expected to be released or have the contract redone.

The reason is that while $6 mil is all well and good, it pales in comparison to the guaranteed money he got from Carolina. He was better off with a new contract than with the roster bonus.

So T2 would have needed the cap flexibility at the very beginning of his tenure to do Wahle's contract in his front loaded manner.

And if Scott's hypothetical T2 starts after the Wahle/Sherman contract, he would still have had to dump current salary to make cap room. You cannot renegotiate existing contracts to create the space that Thompson has been carrying. You need to dump salary first, the write contracts that pay early.

[Patler]

Re: What If: Could Ted Have Kept Wahle, McKenzie and Walker

Sherman noted he was relatively sure one team (it might have been Phily) was interested in Walker; I thought word came out after the draft they were also considering him.

Sherman said the same thing when he traded up to get Donnell Washington, BJ Sander, Kenny Peterson, James Lee and even Chris Johnson in the 7th round. He moved up 8 spots in the 7th, because he was sure someone else wanted Johnson.

Basically, I don't think Sherman had a very good feel for what other teams wanted to do, and he became fixated on specific players that he couldn't stand to lose.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Good stuff, Scott. Keep up the good work.

[Patler]

A more conservative FA approach would not have landed Joe Johnson, may not have paid so much to a guy like Luchey, may not have overpaid Diggs and KGB, etc.; all of which would have increased the cap space by millions of dollars each year, and perhaps would have allowed for signing Wahle to a different type of contract, or renegotiating his contract in advance of the roster bonus coming due, or perhaps even paying the roster bonus and keeping him.

[ZachMN]

McKenzie has faded badly since the year before his holdout. I'm glad he left. He played his best ball for us. Wahle had issues with the management at the time. I remember him feeling miffed about not ever being on the cover of the program or something like that; I'm sure some of you remember the quote. Walker's leaving was due to irrational attitude due to the knee injury. Nothing could control that and the fact that he thinks his poo poo doesn't stink. He is the one most missed over last two years. Probably cost us 4 to 6 games over last two years.

Speaking of all this Sherman era mess how much "dead Money' are we on the hook for now? Anyone know off hand?

[Patler]

Speaking of all this Sherman era mess how much "dead Money' are we on the hook for now? Anyone know off hand?

About $1.9 million for Carroll
$350,000 for Cory Rodgers (TT's mistake)
$178,000 for Donnell Washington
$175,000 for Mark Roman
$146,000 for BJ Sander.

The rest are all nickel and dime.

[pbmax]

Those two RFA situations kill me as they were completely avoidable. We could have kept both Diggs and KGB around for another year to evaluate or replace at a fraction of the cost we ultimately paid.

Sherman got too cute with their tenders and then had someone else negotiate their contract.

A more conservative FA approach would not have landed Joe Johnson, may not have paid so much to a guy like Luchey, may not have overpaid Diggs and KGB, etc.; all of which would have increased the cap space by millions of dollars each year, and perhaps would have allowed for signing Wahle to a different type of contract, or renegotiating his contract in advance of the roster bonus coming due, or perhaps even paying the roster bonus and keeping him.