12-20 and a pissed off Brett Favre! Thanks TT.

[Bretsky]

I agree Rastak. The Packers aren't going into cap hell by signing a few FA's that could actually help this season. Yes, typically you do overpay for FA's but you pay the going rate to help you round out your team. Having $25 million in cap room and having Frank Walker as the only FA signing seems out of whack.

[Bretsky]

But I also agree the free agent class was weak. Still, today's overpay is tommorrow's bargin.

Unless he's your next Joe Johnson.

Or Chris Hope or Will Withespoon. God help us if we pay the right guy

[BallHawk]

"....Looks like Brett thinks TT is not looking to be a winner, just trying to be average. Brett doesn't want to be average."

1. A GM trying 'to be average'????????
2. If Brett doesn't work harder at making better throwing decisions, he will soon be LESS than average.

Is it just me, or does anyone else think that maybe, just maybe Brett Favre may have had a better quarterback rating if only Thompson had put some real talent on the field on the O-line. Cause I was just thinking that when the pocket consistantly collapses in front of a quarterback, it makes it a little harder to complete a pass. Having to run around and scramble just to keep from losing yardage and avoid sacks didnt seem to help his completion percentage either. Then I guess maybe you could look at the fact that his tight ends and everyone in the running game was being used for "max-protection" to make up for the lack of talent on the O-line, and we find that he has fewer tartgets to throw to. Of the targets he did have to throw to, Driver was the only guy that played with any consistancy at all.

Funny how some people could ignore all that and spout something like "If Brett doesn't work harder at making better throwing decisions, he will soon be LESS than average".

funny

So now we are justifying Favre throwing a lob up into triple coverage? Favre has done that his whole career, it's just more apparent now because he doesn't have the Brooks' and Freeman's surounding him. TT drafted an OL that will be here for the future, you can't refute that. Would you of signed Rivera for multi-millions? Would you of liked to sign Hutchinson for 50+ million?

Favre is not what he used to be. Brady didn't have elite options at WR last year, but he managed. Did you see him shouting and crying to the media? I'm not a big Brady guy, but his situation was similar. Now he has those options. However, Favre throwing INTs is Favre's fault, no doubt about that.

[b bulldog]

I love how some keep contorting themselves to stick up for Brett. Some of these really are laughable, I do enjoy reading them, keep'em coming

[BallHawk]

I love how some keep contorting themselves to stick up for Brett. Some of these really are laughable, I do enjoy reading them, keep'em coming

Double standards make the world go round....

[HarveyWallbangers]

I love how some keep contorting themselves to stick up for Brett. Some of these really are laughable, I do enjoy reading them, keep'em coming

Pot. Kettle.

[pbmax]

Bretsky, do you really believe that Griffin, Johnson or Hamlin would have had much impact on this team? Isn't that list an indictment of what was available?

I think Hamlin would be a slight and risky upgrade to Manuel and both might end up sitting behind Underwood. Why sign and pay for the same mediocrity you have? Hamlin was ahead of Manuel in Seattle but suffered another injury during his time there.

Johnson as an upgrade to Franks pass catching-wise I can see, but there is the injury factor as well.

And Griffin's just a guy. I can't believe the hullaballo about these three.

Moss at least I can see where you going to improve. Woodson over Carrol. Pickett replacing aging Jackson. The rest, yeech.

Yeah, yeah. I've got news for you. Free agents next year will get more money then free agents this year got. The year after that, free agents will get more then free agents got the year before. Salaries aren't going to magically go down.

Sure, next year they will get more money. But the cap will go up less, so there will be less new money, and TT won't have blown it this year on overpaid, mediocre players.

Just wait and see.

So you believe getting a few guys this year would cripple the Packers cap situation next year and for years to come? It seems to me, Brandt and Thompson are clever enough to structure contracts to avoid that.

Bottom line is there were players that could have improved this squad w/o breaking the bank. Personally I really liked Deon Grant.

Guys like the FB Griffith, S Hamlin, or TE E Johnson would have been cost effective options as well.

I don't think any of us are saying break the bank or one certain player would push this team over the top.

I DO THINK several are saying that GB should be participating in free agency and attempting to improve the team w/o breaking the bank.

[b bulldog]

Brilliant Harv, buit the truth needs to be stated. Been down this road numerous times and it is funny how each time this happens, more people seem to see it my way, right or wrongly of course.

[Bretsky]

Bretsky, do you really believe that Griffin, Johnson or Hamlin would have had much impact on this team? Isn't that list an indictment of what was available?

I think Hamlin would be a slight and risky upgrade to Manuel and both might end up sitting behind Underwood. Why sign and pay for the same mediocrity you have? Hamlin was ahead of Manuel in Seattle but suffered another injury during his time there.

Johnson as an upgrade to Franks pass catching-wise I can see, but there is the injury factor as well.

And Griffin's just a guy. I can't believe the hullaballo about these three.

Moss at least I can see where you going to improve. Woodson over Carrol. Pickett replacing aging Jackson. The rest, yeech.

Yeah, yeah. I've got news for you. Free agents next year will get more money then free agents this year got. The year after that, free agents will get more then free agents got the year before. Salaries aren't going to magically go down.

Sure, next year they will get more money. But the cap will go up less, so there will be less new money, and TT won't have blown it this year on overpaid, mediocre players.

Just wait and see.

So you believe getting a few guys this year would cripple the Packers cap situation next year and for years to come? It seems to me, Brandt and Thompson are clever enough to structure contracts to avoid that.

Bottom line is there were players that could have improved this squad w/o breaking the bank. Personally I really liked Deon Grant.

Guys like the FB Griffith, S Hamlin, or TE E Johnson would have been cost effective options as well.

I don't think any of us are saying break the bank or one certain player would push this team over the top.

I DO THINK several are saying that GB should be participating in free agency and attempting to improve the team w/o breaking the bank.

I was giving examples of cost effective options. I was all about signing Deon Grant if I'd have to give a name that cost money.

If you can get by the attitude Moss is a no brainer for a 4th; but some do not like him and I can accept that.

I think you underestimate the impact Griffin could have had; he's a very good blocking FB with experience in the Zone scheme who also catches the ball well.

Underwood tore his ACL; Hamlin was cheap and is better than Manuel. I think that would have been a good signing.

And Eric Johnson is a lot better player than the contract he signed. The injury factor brings his value down.

There are risks with every free agent signing; the risk was lower on these guys.

But it remains unfathomable for me to listen to people say there was nobody out there to help us.

I can buy that is was a weak class; I can buy that some were paid too much money. BUT THERE WAS HELP.

B

[The Shadow]

"....Looks like Brett thinks TT is not looking to be a winner, just trying to be average. Brett doesn't want to be average."

1. A GM trying 'to be average'????????
2. If Brett doesn't work harder at making better throwing decisions, he will soon be LESS than average.

Is it just me

It's just you.
Go with your first instinct in this case.

My first instinct was to call you a fucking moron.

Totally brilliant.
It's nice to know razor-sharp wit is still so vibrantly alive in the mind of a fellow poster.

[BradStrand]

I can buy that is was a weak class; I can buy that some were paid too much money. BUT THERE WAS HELP.

Yeah, there was. I think the kind of help available was pretty minimal though. Griffin would have been a good fit for the team, and I seem to remember we did make a play for him...

but we've stockpiled a lot of young players now. Some have to emerge... If a Tyrone Culver or Marviel Underwood can't step up and become comparable to a Deon Grant then the 'build through the draft plan' will have failed...

If we go out and sign some mediocre talent with little upside, we'll never know though.

[pbmax]

I think this comes down to how close the Packers are to challenging for a deep playoff run.

Clearly, with thinning FA crops, you need to have a young base to work with so the FAs you get can fit the cap and you have the money to overpay to get the one's you want.

But with overpaying and going veteran, you do inhibit the development of youngsters and the process of weeding them out and replacing them with other prospects.

The question is, how close are we? If wist has it right, we may have two more years to break the threshold.

Bretsky, do you really believe that Griffin, Johnson or Hamlin would have had much impact on this team? Isn't that list an indictment of what was available?

I think Hamlin would be a slight and risky upgrade to Manuel and both might end up sitting behind Underwood. Why sign and pay for the same mediocrity you have? Hamlin was ahead of Manuel in Seattle but suffered another injury during his time there.

Johnson as an upgrade to Franks pass catching-wise I can see, but there is the injury factor as well.

And Griffin's just a guy. I can't believe the hullaballo about these three.

Moss at least I can see where you going to improve. Woodson over Carrol. Pickett replacing aging Jackson. The rest, yeech.

Yeah, yeah. I've got news for you. Free agents next year will get more money then free agents this year got. The year after that, free agents will get more then free agents got the year before. Salaries aren't going to magically go down.

Sure, next year they will get more money. But the cap will go up less, so there will be less new money, and TT won't have blown it this year on overpaid, mediocre players.

Just wait and see.

So you believe getting a few guys this year would cripple the Packers cap situation next year and for years to come? It seems to me, Brandt and Thompson are clever enough to structure contracts to avoid that.

Bottom line is there were players that could have improved this squad w/o breaking the bank. Personally I really liked Deon Grant.

Guys like the FB Griffith, S Hamlin, or TE E Johnson would have been cost effective options as well.

I don't think any of us are saying break the bank or one certain player would push this team over the top.

I DO THINK several are saying that GB should be participating in free agency and attempting to improve the team w/o breaking the bank.

I was giving examples of cost effective options. I was all about signing Deon Grant if I'd have to give a name that cost money.

If you can get by the attitude Moss is a no brainer for a 4th; but some do not like him and I can accept that.

I think you underestimate the impact Griffin could have had; he's a very good blocking FB with experience in the Zone scheme who also catches the ball well.

Underwood tore his ACL; Hamlin was cheap and is better than Manuel. I think that would have been a good signing.

And Eric Johnson is a lot better player than the contract he signed. The injury factor brings his value down.

There are risks with every free agent signing; the risk was lower on these guys.

But it remains unfathomable for me to listen to people say there was nobody out there to help us.

I can buy that is was a weak class; I can buy that some were paid too much money. BUT THERE WAS HELP.

B

[Bretsky]

I can buy that is was a weak class; I can buy that some were paid too much money. BUT THERE WAS HELP.

Yeah, there was. I think the kind of help available was pretty minimal though. Griffin would have been a good fit for the team, and I seem to remember we did make a play for him...

but we've stockpiled a lot of young players now. Some have to emerge... If a Tyrone Culver or Marviel Underwood can't step up and become comparable to a Deon Grant then the 'build through the draft plan' will have failed...

If we go out and sign some mediocre talent with little upside, we'll never know though.

Good points

When it comes down to it I'm just an impatient SOB

[PackerBlues]

"....Looks like Brett thinks TT is not looking to be a winner, just trying to be average. Brett doesn't want to be average."

1. A GM trying 'to be average'????????
2. If Brett doesn't work harder at making better throwing decisions, he will soon be LESS than average.

Is it just me

It's just you.
Go with your first instinct in this case.

My first instinct was to call you a fucking moron.

Totally brilliant.
It's nice to know razor-sharp wit is still so vibrantly alive in the mind of a fellow poster.

I get a little carried away sometimes.

[Bretsky]

I think this comes down to how close the Packers are to challenging for a deep playoff run.

Clearly, with thinning FA crops, you need to have a young base to work with so the FAs you get can fit the cap and you have the money to overpay to get the one's you want.

But with overpaying and going veteran, you do inhibit the development of youngsters and the process of weeding them out and replacing them with other prospects.

The question is, how close are we? If wist has it right, we may have two more years to break the threshold.

Bretsky, do you really believe that Griffin, Johnson or Hamlin would have had much impact on this team? Isn't that list an indictment of what was available?

I think Hamlin would be a slight and risky upgrade to Manuel and both might end up sitting behind Underwood. Why sign and pay for the same mediocrity you have? Hamlin was ahead of Manuel in Seattle but suffered another injury during his time there.

Johnson as an upgrade to Franks pass catching-wise I can see, but there is the injury factor as well.

And Griffin's just a guy. I can't believe the hullaballo about these three.

Moss at least I can see where you going to improve. Woodson over Carrol. Pickett replacing aging Jackson. The rest, yeech.

Yeah, yeah. I've got news for you. Free agents next year will get more money then free agents this year got. The year after that, free agents will get more then free agents got the year before. Salaries aren't going to magically go down.

Sure, next year they will get more money. But the cap will go up less, so there will be less new money, and TT won't have blown it this year on overpaid, mediocre players.

Just wait and see.

So you believe getting a few guys this year would cripple the Packers cap situation next year and for years to come? It seems to me, Brandt and Thompson are clever enough to structure contracts to avoid that.

Bottom line is there were players that could have improved this squad w/o breaking the bank. Personally I really liked Deon Grant.

Guys like the FB Griffith, S Hamlin, or TE E Johnson would have been cost effective options as well.

I don't think any of us are saying break the bank or one certain player would push this team over the top.

I DO THINK several are saying that GB should be participating in free agency and attempting to improve the team w/o breaking the bank.

I was giving examples of cost effective options. I was all about signing Deon Grant if I'd have to give a name that cost money.

If you can get by the attitude Moss is a no brainer for a 4th; but some do not like him and I can accept that.

I think you underestimate the impact Griffin could have had; he's a very good blocking FB with experience in the Zone scheme who also catches the ball well.

Underwood tore his ACL; Hamlin was cheap and is better than Manuel. I think that would have been a good signing.

And Eric Johnson is a lot better player than the contract he signed. The injury factor brings his value down.

There are risks with every free agent signing; the risk was lower on these guys.

But it remains unfathomable for me to listen to people say there was nobody out there to help us.

I can buy that is was a weak class; I can buy that some were paid too much money. BUT THERE WAS HELP.

B

Actually Wist's final analysis is much worse.

He states two more years, but that assumes we have adequate QB play and then rips into AROD as somebody who has shown next to nothing in regard to having the skill to be a NFL QB.