TT's three year drafting scorecard.

[Patler]

What you really have here is a lesson in quanity over quality, I could see doing that in the 2005 draft when Sherman had depleted the depth but, the bottom line is we have seen little to no production from any of his Offensive picks except the linemen and 1/2 season of Jennings. I admit the Murphy pick was bad luck. I respect your post Patler but this is a case of stats that don't mean shit, all the playmakers on this team are still from the Wolf/Sherman era on Offense, or should I say were there ain't many left.

Well, it does mean something. People have said that he IGNORED the offense in the draft,and that obviosly isn't true. Too mnay fans, in my opinion, are looking for instant gratification, not team building.

You're not going to get instant gratification from the O-lineman he has drafted (without checking, I think 6 of the 17 were O-line), but these guys can be the foundation upon which offenses for the next 10 years are built.

A rookie QB rarely gives instant gratification, but with an old Favre who debates from year to year whether or not he will play, Rodgers was a pick he almost had to make.

Jennings provided some instant gratification. I believe Murphy would have, too. The injury was a bummer.

For those wanting instant flash and gratification, TT has brought in 3 players this year, maybe even a fourth that could give that that to you. This is the first time he has emphasized skill positions on offense, with the hope that they contribute immediately. Last year he emphasized O-linemen, with the hope they would contribute immediately, and seemingly he did pretty well. This year, those linemen will have a year of experience and development to pave the way as the rookie skill position players arrive with every opportunity to show what they can do. Let's see if TT did as well drafting skill position players as he might have done with linemen last year.

[Patler]

He did replace all those guys:

Colledge for Wahle (worse)
Wells for Flanigan (worse)
Spitz for Rivera (worse)
Jennings for Walker (worse)
Jackson/Morency for Green (worse)
Harris for Martin (big bunch of, "who cares")

Of course some of that turnover was necessary. Rivera and Flanigan were nearing the end; but Wahle, Walker, and Green make no sense to me. When you have pro bowl players, you keep them... Green's departure is rationally debatable, but Walker and Wahle were both in their primes.

We're seeing the results of all that turnover on the field, i.e. a completely anemic offense that can't score pts.

Colledge in 2006 was not as good as Wahle would have been in 2006, but Colledge as a rookie was MUCH better than Wahle as a rookie. Of course that does not mean that Colledge will develope into what Wahle did. However, Wahle is a very good guard, but not an elite guard. He made one pro bowl as an injury substitute. He is a very good run blocker, not as good in pass protection. Besides, TT didn't happily dump Wahle. It was almost an impossibility to keep him, especially with Sharper refusing to renegotiate. Sharper's contract was the single biggest source of potential cap space to get the room to pay Wahle.

I'm not sure that Spitz in 2006 wasn't almost as good as Rivera in 2006. I watched a few Dallas games, and Rivera was struggling big time. His pass protection was very bad. He couldn't seem to move his feet. With the leg, ankle and back injuries he has had that is not surprising. He survived with smarts alone.

Wells was better in 2006 than Flanagan was in 2005. Wells isn't yet as good as Flanagan was a few seasons earlier, but Flanagan had to be replaced. He only played 3 games in 2004. He played 14 in 2005 for GB, but not very well. He only lasted 9 games with Houston last year. Replacing Flanagan with Wells was something that had to be done.

We don't yet know if Jackson/Morrency for Green in 2007 is worse or not. The heart is there with Green, he ran hard in 2006, but I'm not sure he can still get it done. Too many times I saw Green stumbling last year, which generally means a loss of foot speed. Maybe we should wait to see how Jackson/Morrency and Green actually perform in 2007 before we decide if it is worse or not. We still remember the Green of 2003-2004. He isn't the same player anymore. It remains to be seen how far away from that he will be in 2007.

You seem to be hung up on what some players were 3 or 4 years ago, which in the NFL is a lifetime. Teams change. Preferrably it is gradual, a few each year. The problem with the Packer offense was that it had remained static for about 4 years, with no depth built in behind the starters to take over for them. When they all started getting old, or entered contract years, there were no replacements available.

[mmmdk]

Don't forget Terrance Murphy; the guy was pretty good in colledge and was turning into a pro and probably a starter. I've got the Caroline game (the near comeback) on DVD but I can't watch it.

[wist43]

Patler, I'm not "hung up" on what players were 3-4 years ago, and as I mentioned in my post, some of those guys were near the end, and I wouldn't have resigned them (Rivera and Flanigan).

The fact remains that the replacements aren't as good as the outgoing players... I don't ever see Wells as being as good as Flanigan or Winters - to me, Wells is a fringe player b/c of his lack of size; nor do I see Colledge or Spitz as ever being as good as Wahle and Rivera. I do regard Wahle as an elite G - pro bowls are popularity contests.

As for Green, yes he is nearing the end, but given that they have nothing to replace him, and he was productive last year - got the tough yds that Morency will never be able to get - I would have resigned him. To me, Jackson and Morency look like the same player. MM and TT claim he's a tough inside runner, but over the course of a full season, I don't see it.

The end result is that the Packers are retooling, and are taking the long view - the very long view - without regard to winning now... scoring pts is going to be like pulling teeth this year.

[Patler]

If players had to be replaced, why write a post that has an overtone of criticism for replacing them? Why even include the Flanaga/Wells comparison. Essentially your argument is that Wells was not as good in 2006 as Flanagan was in 2003. So what?

Most of the time when you replace a veteran with a rookie or inexperienced player there is a regression from what the vet was in his best years. Maybe temporary and hopefully shortlived. Often the replacement is just as good as the veteran would have been at the end of his career. Flanagan and Rivera are examples of that. Green (who personally I wish we had kept) might be an example too. I will wait for 2007 to play out before judging whether replacing Green with Morrency/Jackson was "worse" or not.

Neither Wahle nor Rivera were very good when they took over as starters. After Rivera's first year as a starter there was much debate about if his pass protection would ever be good enough to remain a starter. Wahle went back to the bench after his first year as a starter.

Wolf let Taylor, Timmerman, Paup, Hentrick, Cecil and many other very good players go. The players who replaced them were not as good initially. It happens all the time.

[PackerBlues]

What you really have here is a lesson in quanity over quality, I could see doing that in the 2005 draft when Sherman had depleted the depth but, the bottom line is we have seen little to no production from any of his Offensive picks except the linemen and 1/2 season of Jennings. I admit the Murphy pick was bad luck. I respect your post Patler but this is a case of stats that don't mean shit, all the playmakers on this team are still from the Wolf/Sherman era on Offense, or should I say were there ain't many left.

I agree.

[PackerBlues]

Anybody know what Sherman's drafts look like?

Yeah. They looked like crap.

If Shermans drafts looked like crap, how do we then rate Teds?

Shermans very first draft pick : Javon Walker. A very productive player who immediately contributed. (What ever happened to that guy anyway?)

Thompsons very first draft pick in GB : Aaron Rogers. A very talented bench warmer who also has the amazing ability to hold a clipboard. WOOT WOOT!!!

[Patler]

What you really have here is a lesson in quanity over quality, I could see doing that in the 2005 draft when Sherman had depleted the depth but, the bottom line is we have seen little to no production from any of his Offensive picks except the linemen and 1/2 season of Jennings. I admit the Murphy pick was bad luck. I respect your post Patler but this is a case of stats that don't mean shit, all the playmakers on this team are still from the Wolf/Sherman era on Offense, or should I say were there ain't many left.

I agree.

If Colledge, Spitz, Moll, Rodgers, Jackson and Hall are starters six years from now, and Jones, Jennings and Clowney are among the top 4 receivers on the team, will it still have meant nothing?

Maybe we should wait to see if Jennings, Jackson, Jones, Clowney or Wynn can become playmakers before concluding that TT has not drafted any playmakers.

[Patler]

Shermans very first draft pick : Javon Walker. A very productive player who immediately contributed. (What ever happened to that guy anyway?)

Immediately contributed? Apparently you have forgotten all the "Is he a wasted draft pick?" articles that follwed Walker's first season.

[Zool]

Ahh Patler. The only one with enough ambition to fight the good fight.

[Fritz]

Truth is, PackerBlues, there's no way to say how Rodgers will turn out. It is safe to say that he's not better than Brett Favre, but you could say that about any QB taken since 2005.

Mike Sherman had some hits (Walker, Wells, Corey Williams, Nick Barnett, Davenpoop, Cullen Jenkins, Aaron Kampman) and some misses (BJ, Donnell Washington, Ahmad Carroll, Joey Thomas, James Lee, etc.). Perhaps his greatest error as a draft person was sacrificing developing young talent (depth) in an attempt to "hit big" by trading up. It worked in Javon Walker's case but not in any others I am aware of.

It's still too soon to judge Thompson's drafts. We'll know more at the end of the season about TT's first draft. Next year we'll know more about his second draft. And, if by the end of 2008 the Pack is not clearly becoming a serious contender - not just a 9-7 sneak-in-the-back-door-first round-loser-playoff team, my sense is that TT will be shown the door.

[Bretsky]

What you really have here is a lesson in quanity over quality, I could see doing that in the 2005 draft when Sherman had depleted the depth but, the bottom line is we have seen little to no production from any of his Offensive picks except the linemen and 1/2 season of Jennings. I admit the Murphy pick was bad luck. I respect your post Patler but this is a case of stats that don't mean shit, all the playmakers on this team are still from the Wolf/Sherman era on Offense, or should I say were there ain't many left.

I agree.

If Colledge, Spitz, Moll, Rodgers, Jackson and Hall are starters six years from now, and Jones, Jennings and Clowney are among the top 4 receivers on the team, will it still have meant nothing?


Maybe we should wait to see if Jennings, Jackson, Jones, Clowney or Wynn can become playmakers before concluding that TT has not drafted any playmakers.

The debate is more about patience. And the more you have the more you like TT.

I think TT has did a solid job drafting the past two years.

Jennings surly might be a playmaker; ditto for those two yahoo's we drafted at WR this year

But up to this point on the Turtle's watch our offensive playmakers went from Favre, Driver, Walker, and Green (if you include him).

to

Favre and Driver.

[Bretsky]

Shermans very first draft pick : Javon Walker. A very productive player who immediately contributed. (What ever happened to that guy anyway?)

Immediately contributed? Apparently you have forgotten all the "Is he a wasted draft pick?" articles that follwed Walker's first season.

Yes, Walker was vere raw in year one and he didn't light it up year two either. But like Favre, IMO you could see the talent was definitely there if he had the heart to let it develop.

[Fritz]

What you really have here is a lesson in quanity over quality, I could see doing that in the 2005 draft when Sherman had depleted the depth but, the bottom line is we have seen little to no production from any of his Offensive picks except the linemen and 1/2 season of Jennings. I admit the Murphy pick was bad luck. I respect your post Patler but this is a case of stats that don't mean shit, all the playmakers on this team are still from the Wolf/Sherman era on Offense, or should I say were there ain't many left.

I agree.

If Colledge, Spitz, Moll, Rodgers, Jackson and Hall are starters six years from now, and Jones, Jennings and Clowney are among the top 4 receivers on the team, will it still have meant nothing?


Maybe we should wait to see if Jennings, Jackson, Jones, Clowney or Wynn can become playmakers before concluding that TT has not drafted any playmakers.

The debate is more about patience. And the more you have the more you like TT.
I think TT has did a solid job drafting the past two years.

Jennings surly might be a playmaker; ditto for those two yahoo's we drafted at WR this year

But up to this point on the Turtle's watch our offensive playmakers went from Favre, Driver, Walker, and Green (if you include him).

to

Favre and Driver.

I think this is a very astute observation, Bretsky.

[PackerBlues]

What you really have here is a lesson in quanity over quality, I could see doing that in the 2005 draft when Sherman had depleted the depth but, the bottom line is we have seen little to no production from any of his Offensive picks except the linemen and 1/2 season of Jennings. I admit the Murphy pick was bad luck. I respect your post Patler but this is a case of stats that don't mean shit, all the playmakers on this team are still from the Wolf/Sherman era on Offense, or should I say were there ain't many left.

I agree.

If Colledge, Spitz, Moll, Rodgers, Jackson and Hall are starters six years from now, and Jones, Jennings and Clowney are among the top 4 receivers on the team, will it still have meant nothing?

Maybe we should wait to see if Jennings, Jackson, Jones, Clowney or Wynn can become playmakers before concluding that TT has not drafted any playmakers.

OR.........Maybe we should wait to see if Jennings, Jackson, Jones, Clowney or Wynn can become players before concluding that TT has drafted any playmakers.