Last Words

[Patler]

But how often does it really happen that a person on death row---or even in prison for life---is exonerated?

Since 1973, there have been 124 inmates on death who have been exonerated and released. That's just those on death row, not those sentenced to life. On average, they have served almost 10 years in prison before being released.

Conceptually I have no problem with the death penalty, but the US has not done a very good job in applying it.

How many were exonerated during the appeals process? Those don't count against the death penalty, because they were never in danger of actually facing execution until the appeals process was complete. This is why we have an appeals process. Exoneration during appeals is the system working the way it should.

None of the 124, based on the normal appeal process. You are not normally exonerated by an appeal. Most often appeals reverse a conviction and give you a new trial based on some legal wrong during the original trial, and you may even be found not guilty at a subsequent trial. Exoneration results from new evidence determining you were in fact innocent all along, and the court rules as such. The 124 were people sitting on death row, waiting to be executed. A bunch have been exonerated based on new DNA testing, proving they were not the guilty person (just like Avery). There are many sitting on death rows pleading for the state to perform DNA testing on old samples from convictions long before DNA testing was available (essentially, pre-O.J.), and in some cases the states have refused. There were some that wouldn't even release the samples for private testing by the convicted person.

Essentially, the appeal process never ends, and many inmates file requests for re-reviews right up to the time of their execution, as one or another appeal forum denies last minute appeal requests. So from that respect you could say all exonerations are based on appeals, but it is not what we normally think of for appeals.

Illinois had a bunch of death row inmates whose cases were taken on by law school students after the "typical" appeal process ran its course. After 4 or 5 were exonerated in a relatively short time, Illinois passed a moratorium on the death penalty.

On average, the 124 were on death row for about 10 years before being exonerated. Is that the system working the way it shoud? A trial that may take a year before conviction and sentencing, and rotting on death row for 10 years before being released regardless of the factors behind it? Our application of the death penalty is very poor.

[Guiness]

On a happier note, the head of the family, Mr Charles Manson himself, is up for parole.

He's 72 years old.

http://cbs2.com/topstories/local_story_143083602.html

[HarveyWallbangers]

Re: Last Words

I know that. Maybe I should have asked the question better. I was wondering if he killed one person by accident/self defense or if he went on a killing spree with a butcher knife.

I haven't heard of a case where somebody got the chair for murdering someone by accident or for self-defense.

You've not looked. Watch The Green Mile.

I wasn't saying that no innocent people were executed. The judicial process is far from perfect. But people who have been deemed to have killed by accident or in self-defense don't get the death penalty.

(That's not to say that somebody who did kill in self-defense or by accident didn't get wrongfully prosecuted.)

[HarveyWallbangers]

I'm against capital punishment--except in cases where there is 100% certainty of executing a serial killer, a serial pedophile, a serial rapist, or a serial Liberal.

[GrnBay007]

He was an idiot...well, an animal, for the crimes he committed. He stopped appeals and was ready to die. He could have said a million things and people would still have had something to say about his last words....he chose to comment on the raiders. The only "right" thing he could say at that point was to apologize to the family of the victims. ....apparently that never crossed his mind.

[the_idle_threat]

But how often does it really happen that a person on death row---or even in prison for life---is exonerated?

Since 1973, there have been 124 inmates on death who have been exonerated and released. That's just those on death row, not those sentenced to life. On average, they have served almost 10 years in prison before being released.

Conceptually I have no problem with the death penalty, but the US has not done a very good job in applying it.

How many were exonerated during the appeals process? Those don't count against the death penalty, because they were never in danger of actually facing execution until the appeals process was complete. This is why we have an appeals process. Exoneration during appeals is the system working the way it should.

None of the 124, based on the normal appeal process. You are not normally exonerated by an appeal. Most often appeals reverse a conviction and give you a new trial based on some legal wrong during the original trial, and you may even be found not guilty at a subsequent trial. Exoneration results from new evidence determining you were in fact innocent all along, and the court rules as such. The 124 were people sitting on death row, waiting to be executed. A bunch have been exonerated based on new DNA testing, proving they were not the guilty person (just like Avery). There are many sitting on death rows pleading for the state to perform DNA testing on old samples from convictions long before DNA testing was available (essentially, pre-O.J.), and in some cases the states have refused. There were some that wouldn't even release the samples for private testing by the convicted person.

Essentially, the appeal process never ends, and many inmates file requests for re-reviews right up to the time of their execution, as one or another appeal forum denies last minute appeal requests. So from that respect you could say all exonerations are based on appeals, but it is not what we normally think of for appeals.

Illinois had a bunch of death row inmates whose cases were taken on by law school students after the "typical" appeal process ran its course. After 4 or 5 were exonerated in a relatively short time, Illinois passed a moratorium on the death penalty.

On average, the 124 were on death row for about 10 years before being exonerated. Is that the system working the way it shoud? A trial that may take a year before conviction and sentencing, and rotting on death row for 10 years before being released regardless of the factors behind it? Our application of the death penalty is very poor.

I'm not sure what the "normal" appeals process is ... as opposed to abnormal? :P

An appeal is an appeal. Of course, there is only one guaranteed level of appellate review (usually state applellate court for criminal cases), and any other court with jusrisdiction has discretion of whether or not to hear the case after that, but these courts are all part of the appeals process. And by my definition anyway, the appeals process includes new trials ordered by appellate courts, which can be based upon new evidence admitted upon appeal, or upon some other "legal wrong."

Again, this is the system working, as it worked for those 124 inmates who were exonerated due to an appellate decison. Where there is new evidence, the appellate court can make a "not guilty" ruling directly (exonerate), or it can grant a new trial with an order to include the new evidence if there is still a triable issue of fact, just as it can also grant a new trial based upon some other "legal wrong." Oftentimes "new" evidence is not new at all, but was simply excluded from the first trial in an evidence ruling by the trial judge. In any case, a judge or jury has to rule upon the appellant's guilt in light of new evidence or circumstances. These death row inmates were not going to be executed until this appeals process (including new trials ordered by the appellate court) was complete.

Of course, this is unless the pending appeal is not an appeal on the merits (i.e. new evidence which might prove them not guilty), but rather an appeal for clemency from an executive. This is usually the last hope for appeal, and---if granted---it is not an exoneration at all.

The 10-year lag to free the wrongfully-convicted means the system is far from perfect, but it is really not an indictment of the death penalty (sentencing); it is an indictment of the conviction and appeals process. If this is the time it takes for appeals to be resolved, why would it be different for people sentenced to life in prison rather than death? I suggest that the sentence has nothing to do with it. If anything, a death sentence might open the door to greater appellate review, given the stakes. I think it's likely that some of those 124 people would still be in jail today if they had been sentenced to life rather than death.

I agree with you that people are convicted wrongfully too often, but this happens whether they are sentenced to death or to life in prison. In either case, they appeal. When death row inmates' appeals run out, they are executed. When lifers' appeals run out, they rot in prison---for far longer than 10 years in the vast majority of cases---and eventually they die in prison. The result is the same---death in prison---except that the lifers are caged and warehoused a whole lot longer (is this any less cruel than putting them out of their misery?) and they cost the state a ton more money over time.

Perhaps a better measure of whether the death penalty is justified is to determine how many people who were sentenced to life in prison for what would have been capital crimes in death penalty jurisdictions are exonerated much later---after they would have been executed had they been sentenced to death. This would provide some measure of whether it is worth it to warehouse people for many decades rather than execute them for what would be capital crimes, on the off chance that they might be freed someday.

[MJZiggy]

The interesting part of all this is that I once read an article that said the safest place for a person to be is death row. The reason being that for all the people sentenced to death, how many are actually executed???