Vick goes to court today....

[Harlan Huckleby]

Taylor said Vick financed virtually all the "Bad Newz Kennels" operation on Vick's property in Surry County.

There's a shocker.

I wonder what the public outcry would have been if Vick had been sponsoring cock fighting for his homeboys. Lets say he even got caught choking the chickens.

I suspect he would have gotten a couple months in the county jail.

Prosecutors have a lot of discretion. I don't like it when prosecutors respond to the the passions of the public. Pulling out the RICO big guns because they can.

Look, I want to clearly state that I am against torturing puppies. I just think we need a CONSISTENT view towards cruelty to animals. It's wrong to just respond to public feelings about cruelty to the cute ones.

I trust that all you tender-hearted folk who want to see Vick rot in jail will also be protesting at the opening of bow-hunting sason. With bow hunting, by design the deer dies a long, agonizing death. ( I won't join you in the protest, because I value hunters rights, and I recognize that nature is a violent place.)

[Rastak]

ESPN's resident lawyer Munson's take on HH's favorite victim.







On Friday morning, the last two of Michael Vick's co-defendants in a federal dogfighting case -- Quanis Phillips and Purnell Peace -- pleaded guilty to a charge of conspiracy to travel in interstate commerce in aid of unlawful activities and to sponsor a dog in an animal fighting venture. They now add their names and their knowledge to testimony from four cooperating witnesses and Tony Taylor, a co-defendant who earlier agreed to testify against Vick. With the evidence piling up against the Atlanta Falcons' quarterback, where does that leave the case? Here are the latest questions and answers.


Now that they have pleaded guilty, what do Peace and Phillips provide to the government's case against Vick that wasn't there before?


Both of Vick's former cohorts in the alleged dogfighting scheme will bring dramatic and powerful testimony against Vick. The most difficult testimony for Vick to counter will be Peace's description of a doubleheader dogfight in March 2003. According to the "Summary of the Facts" that Peace signed as part of his plea agreement, Vick and Peace entered two dogs from Bad Newz Kennels in that fight. Both lost. If the Vick case goes to trial, Peace will testify in front of the judge and jury that he and Vick "executed the dog by wetting the dog down with water and electrocuting the animal." That isn't all. Peace and Phillips will describe eight more executions during 2004 and 2005, all of them occurring on Vick's compound in Surry County, Va. All eight dogs flunked fighting tests. Some were drowned. Others were hung. And one was killed -- with Vick allegedly present -- by "slamming its body into the ground."

When testimony from Peace and Phillips is added to the testimony from Taylor, the government's case against Vick appears to be overwhelming. The seven witnesses can describe the alleged dogfighting scheme from its inception in 2001, less than eight weeks after Vick signed his first NFL contract, to its demise three months ago when police raided Vick's compound in rural Surry County. The seven witnesses allegedly can describe Vick building the dogfighting facility, buying dogs, breeding dogs, training dogs, betting on dogs, paying for everything and participating in gruesome executions of losing dogs.


Their testimony will be brutal and horrifying. It is the kind of testimony that likely will transcend anything Vick might be able to offer in explanation or mitigation of the charges against him. Even if the jurors believe only half of what Peace and Phillips say, it could push Vick to the edge of a conviction and serious prison time. Their testimony might also force Vick to testify in the trial, something his lawyers likely want to avoid. Without a denial from Vick about what these guys say, Vick will be finished. If he does testify, he faces a nightmare of cross-examination from federal prosecutors armed with at least seven cooperating witnesses and six years of e-mails, documents and financial records from Bad Newz Kennels.

On the issues of money and gambling, what will Peace and Phillips offer against Vick?


They will join Taylor (the first co-defendant to plead guilty) in describing the critical roles of Vick's name and his money in the establishment and the financing of the 15-acre kennel compound. More importantly, Peace and Phillips will tell the jury that Vick was the gambler in the enterprise. He was the winner when they won and the loser when they lost. The bets that were made, were made with Vick's money. In his plea agreement, Taylor said Vick was the source of all funds, both for the operation and for the gambling. He said one of the cohorts made the side bets, but Vick took the wins and paid the losses.

Vick's participation in this form of gambling will cause him serious difficulty with NFL commissioner Roger Goodell, as well as the government if a superseding indictment comes down and includes a felony gambling charge. Peace will describe Vick's payment of $23,000 in losses from the dogfight doubleheader in March 2003. Peace was present, he will testify, when Vick paid the money from a stash he kept in a book bag. Both Peace and Phillips will also describe Vick paying $11,000 in losses from a fight against a dog named "Trouble" in late 2003.

What can Vick expect from the NFL as this evidence piles up against him?


Peace and Phillips and their description of Vick's gambling add to an already difficult situation with the NFL. Vick reportedly told the commissioner face-to-face shortly after the first raid on his compound in April that he was not involved in dogfighting and gambling. The evidence of Vick's role in the kennel and his gambling now appears overwhelming. The last celebrity athlete to tell a commissioner face-to-face that he was not gambling despite a mountain of evidence against him was Pete Rose. The commissioner who listened to Rose's denial, Bart Giamatti, issued an order that banned Rose for life. Rose, of course, was betting on baseball while he managed the Reds. That was a more serious set of lies than Vick's alleged untruths, but lying to Goodell about gambling might do more damage to Vick's career than anything he did to the dogs.

Why would Vick hesitate to join Taylor, Peace and Phillips in admitting his guilt and accepting his punishment?



Vick has enjoyed six years of riches and celebrity. Obviously, he has vastly more to lose than his three alleged cohorts do. In a matter of three months, his focus has turned from succeeding as an NFL quarterback to potentially surviving time in a federal penitentiary. Instead of tens of millions of dollars in income, he is facing months of confinement if he admits his guilt. Most importantly, a plea of guilty and some prison time do not guarantee him a return to the NFL. If he is going to plead guilty in court, Vick and his lawyers want to settle with the NFL at the same time. They want an agreement that will allow Vick to return to the NFL.

Generally in multiparty negotiations such as this one, the lawyers refer to their goal as a "global settlement." It would resolve all issues, and the "global" adjective makes everyone sound important. A global settlement for Vick is unlikely, because Goodell is not interested in settling anything with Vick until the commissioner knows what will happen in the court action against the Falcons' quarterback. If Vick cannot use a plea of guilty to guarantee his return to the NFL, he may be looking hard at the idea of fighting the charges in a jury trial and hoping for a miracle.

Lester Munson, a Chicago lawyer and journalist who has been reporting on investigative and legal issues in the sports industry for 18 years, is a senior writer for ESPN.com.

[Scott Campbell]

I just think we need a CONSISTENT view towards cruelty to animals.

Never going to happen.

Lassie was not an elk.
Rin Tin Tin was not a hedgehog.
Bison are not man's best friend.

Like it or not, dogs hold a special place in this society. And sympathy for the abused canines, and anger against the perpetrators, will always be greater for dogs than for less revered species.

[Rastak]

I just think we need a CONSISTENT view towards cruelty to animals.

Never going to happen.

Lassie was not an elk.
Rin Tin Tin was not a hedgehog.
Bison are not man's best friend.

Like it or not, dogs hold a special place in this society. And sympathy for the abused canines, and anger against the perpetrators, will always be greater for dogs than for less revered species.

You can't win in the court of public opinion when you are whacking Dogs or Kids. Period. I read that somewhere in the last day and it's 100% right.

Dogs are man best friend, Kids can't defend themselves (as dogs can't) so when you torture or kill them, you are officially a worthless human being.

Difference is when you do it to kids you get the chair (and rightfully so) with dogs, only a few years in the can.
I hope he enjoys his few years in the can. I hope his can enjoys his few years in the can.

[Scott Campbell]

If the Vick case goes to trial, Peace will testify in front of the judge and jury that he and Vick "executed the dog by wetting the dog down with water and electrocuting the animal." That isn't all. Peace and Phillips will describe eight more executions during 2004 and 2005, all of them occurring on Vick's compound in Surry County, Va. All eight dogs flunked fighting tests. Some were drowned. Others were hung. And one was killed -- with Vick allegedly present -- by "slamming its body into the ground."

It's a fucked up world when people think that this is a fun way to spend Saturday nights.

[Rastak]

If the Vick case goes to trial, Peace will testify in front of the judge and jury that he and Vick "executed the dog by wetting the dog down with water and electrocuting the animal." That isn't all. Peace and Phillips will describe eight more executions during 2004 and 2005, all of them occurring on Vick's compound in Surry County, Va. All eight dogs flunked fighting tests. Some were drowned. Others were hung. And one was killed -- with Vick allegedly present -- by "slamming its body into the ground."

It's a fucked up world when people think that this is a fun way to spend Saturday nights.

No shit. Can you even imagine it? I can't.


Damn, how'd we end up on the same side.....you going to the PR game?

[Scott Campbell]

If the Vick case goes to trial, Peace will testify in front of the judge and jury that he and Vick "executed the dog by wetting the dog down with water and electrocuting the animal." That isn't all. Peace and Phillips will describe eight more executions during 2004 and 2005, all of them occurring on Vick's compound in Surry County, Va. All eight dogs flunked fighting tests. Some were drowned. Others were hung. And one was killed -- with Vick allegedly present -- by "slamming its body into the ground."

It's a fucked up world when people think that this is a fun way to spend Saturday nights.

No shit. Can you even imagine it? I can't.


Damn, how'd we end up on the same side.....you going to the PR game?

Wish I could, but I can't.

[Scott Campbell]

Vick likely to face state charges in alleged dogfighting ring

ESPN.com news services

Updated: August 17, 2007, 5:29 PM ET

While Michael Vick and his lawyers are pondering a possible plea deal on federal charges related to an alleged dogfighting ring, the state of Virginia plans to go ahead with separate charges as a result of their own investigation, according to a published report.

Virginia Commonwealth Attorney Gerald Poindexter told the Atlanta Journal-Constitution on Friday that "yes, indeed, we will prosecute" Vick and others on possible animal cruelty and dogfighting charges.

Poindexter said a grand jury is set to convene on Sept. 25 and the case would probably be submitted at that time.

The specific charges to be filed haven't been decided yet, but Poindexter said some evidence gathered in the federal case against Vick could be used against the Falcons quarterback.

Dogfighting and animal cruelty are felonies in Virginia with animal cruelty charges holding penalties of up to five years in jail for each animal killed.

"The execution of these animals -- and the manner in which they were executed -- is startlingly offensive and demanding of prosecution," Poindexter told the newspaper.

[Scott Campbell]

This is interesting. If he pleads guilty and cuts a deal for less time on the federal charges, it would seem to royally screw him on the state charges. And state charges include up to 5 years for each killing.

Very interesting.

[Scott Campbell]

Anyone here have a legal background that can help clarify this?



It looks to me like he can't cut a deal with just the Feds, as it would expose him to up to 40 years on the state charges. Does he have to cut a deal with both at the same time? Can he even do that? Could what the state announced here guarantee that he has to go to trial, instead of cutting a deal?

[Harlan Huckleby]

You can't win in the court of public opinion when you are whacking Dogs or Kids.

Well, lets leave kids out of the argument, that's a whole new discussion.

Law is not supposed to be driven by public opinion, emotions, bias. It is supposed to be based on principles, reason, precedent, facts.

cruelty to elks should be treated under the law the same as cruelty to dogs. and it is, formally, in the books. When public passion starts driving things, we have mob rule. Like in the Duke case, where the prosecutor responded to public pressure, emotions.

The Vick Case has taken on that mob rule atmosphere. Vick should be treated like all the other damn fools busted for animal fighting. They don't drag RICO in when members of Madtown's huge, extended family are busted for chicken fighting.

[Rastak]

You can't win in the court of public opinion when you are whacking Dogs or Kids.

Well, lets leave kids out of the argument, that's a whole new discussion.

Law is not supposed to be driven by public opinion, emotions, bias. It is supposed to be based on principles, reason, precedent, facts.

cruelty to elks should be treated under the law the same as cruelty to dogs. and it is, formally, in the books. When public passion starts driving things, we have mob rule. Like in the Duke case, where the prosecutor responded to public pressure, emotions.

The Vick Case has taken on that mob rule atmosphere. Vick should be treated like all the other damn fools busted for animal fighting.

Are you not getting this, there are laws and mr prick is about find out how they work.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Are you not getting this, there are laws and mr prick is about find out how they work.

got it.

[Rastak]

Are you not getting this, there are laws and mr prick is about find out how they work.

got it.

Finally....


It's really very simple. Laws on books, Vick violates laws, Vick gets charged, Vick spends many a day in jail because he was too fucking stupid to realize when you violate federal laws you just might go to prison.


Mob mentality is just a forum thing and a special interest group thing. Anyone with even a small sense of decency will realize how friggen repugnant this shit is. The feds moved deliberately and proceeded when they realized the guy did it. I don't see the controversy you see.

[Scott Campbell]

Plea agreement may not arrive until Monday

By Len Pasquarelli
ESPN.com
(Archive)

Updated: August 18, 2007, 2:41 PM ET

ATLANTA -- Still heavy into negotiations and deliberations, embattled Atlanta Falcons quarterback Michael Vick continued on Saturday to mull his options in the dogfighting case he faces in federal court, and has still not completely ruled out the possibility of proceeding to trial on November 26.

Sources with knowledge of the ongoing negotiations with prosecutors, and also with the discussions within the Vick camp, said a plea agreement -- if the quarterback decides to accept one -- may not come now before Monday. One source suggested a plea might not be entered until Tuesday; however, a U.S. District Court grand jury will convene on Monday to consider additional charges against the Atlanta Falcons' star.

It is believed that, if a superseding indictment is handed down against Vick, it will include racketeering charges, which could substantially increase his potential sentence should he be convicted.

The docket of U.S. District Court Judge Henry E. Hudson, who is presiding over the case, currently indicates no cases for Monday, according to a government Web site.

"At a key moment like this in anyone's life, you want as much information as possible, and that's what Michael is trying to get," said one person close to the negotiations. "This is the biggest decision he'll ever face. This isn't like, 'Well, do I pass it or run it?' His [advisors] are trying to provide him with everything they can, every bit of information, so that he can then make the most informed decision possible."

It was expected by many, including Atlanta owner Arthur Blank, that Vick would make a plea by Friday, when two more of his co-defendants, Quanis Phillips and Purnell Peace, pleaded guilty. A third co-defendant, Tony Taylor, pleaded guilty last month.

But there was no plea by Vick on Friday and he continued to meet with members of his defense team, including attorney Billy Martin, a former federal prosecutor and one-time senior official at the Department of Justice.

Sources said that, in any plea, Vick would seek to avoid additional charges in Virginia, where Gerald Poindexter, the Commonwealth's attorney for Surry County, told the Atlanta Journal-Constitution on Friday that he intends to pursue charges and to present evidence to the local grand jury when it convenes Sept. 25.

The state charges could add a maximum 40 years in potential jail time, if Vick were convicted.

"Not having to deal [with charges in Virginia] is a key," said a source. "It's a big part of [the negotiations]."

In addition, the Vick defense team is attempting to gain some insight into how the NFL and the Falcons will proceed if the six-year veteran pleads guilty. In that regard, they are making little or no headway, at least at the league level.

Commissioner Roger Goodell said earlier this week that, if Vick strikes a plea deal, the NFL will examine the plea and react accordingly. Several sources, both from the league and from the Vick camp, said Goodell has been steadfast in not offering any indication of what degree of sanctions he might consider. Goodell told reporters this week, on a tour of training camps, that he could rule on Vick within seven to 10 days of a plea.

The league continues to have its own investigator, Eric Holder, probe the Vick case. Before the commissioner imposed any sanctions, he would likely want to meet with Vick, and such a session has not been broached yet.

Blank told ESPN's Sal Paolantonio before the Falcons' preseason game against the Bills on Friday night at Orchard Park, N.Y., that he has not spoken recently to Vick. But senior Falcons officials have been in contact in recent days, including Friday, with people close to the quarterback.

In the interview with ESPN and another with a local NBC affiliate in Atlanta, Blank used the terms "very disturbing," and "very troubling" to describe the situation.

"From a personal perspective," Blank told Paolantonio, "it's just very sad. It's distressing after six years spending time with somebody, you think you know them, and then there's another side that is shocking to all of us."

Senior writer Len Pasquarelli covers the NFL for ESPN.com