Favre, Thompson, Rogers. The End.

[SkinBasket]

Skinbasket,

Is that a reject Teletubbie in your signature picture?

That is the one and only Prince from the world of Katamari Damacy, son of the King of All Cosmos. and he carries much more distinction than a "reject teletubbie!"




King of All Cosmos: This sky is not pretty at all. It's rough and masculine. Possibly sweaty.

King of All Cosmos: We broke it. Yes, we were naughty. Completely naughty. So, so very sorry. But just between you and us, it felt quite good.

King of All Cosmos: We are moved to tears by the size of this thing.

[swede]

Re: Offense

I think that part of the reason so many people ignore the Packers lack of a deep threat (other than a double teamed Donald Driver), is because they look at GB's 8-8 record as being something to be proud of, as opposed to the 4-12 record from 2005.

Our 8 wins:

Week 3 against the Lions. 31-24
The Lions ended the season 3-13, and at this point in the season, GB had not won a game yet. This was a close game against a shit team.

Week 7 against Miami. 34-24
The Dolphins ended the season 6-10, this win put the Packers at 2-4, coming off a buy week.

Week 8 against the Cardinals. 31-14
The Cardinals ended the season 5-11, this win put the Packers at 3-4.

Week 10 against the Vikings. 23-17
The Vikings ended the season at 6-10, this win put the Packers at 4-5.

Week 14 against SanFran. 30-19
SanFran ended the season at 7-9. This win comes off of a 3 game losing streak, and put the Packers at 5-8 for the season.

Week 15 against the Lions. 17-9
again, the Lions ended the season 3-13. Packers are now 6-8

Week 16 against the Vikings. 9-7
again, the vikings ended the season at 6-10. Packers are now 7-8

Week 17 against the Bears. 26-7
The Bears ended the season at 13-3. This win put the Packers at 8-8


None of the teams that the Packers beat last year even had a .500 winning percentage, other than the Bears, who already had the division locked up, and were in the playoffs with a buy week irregardless of the outcome of their game against the Packers.

We know that a HUGE part of the problem was scoring in the red zone. Did Thompson address that?

See, now that was a pretty good post!

But since I continue to be rather optimistic about the team over the next three to five years I would like to use your evidence to prove another point:

Your incontrovertible facts demonstrate that, in all likelihood given the early tough schedule, a Green Bay record of 8-8 at the conclusion of this year would be a benchmark of growth and improvement rather than stagnation--especially if any more than one or two of the 8 wins come against teams with winning records.

Lay down your anger, brother, and enjoy the ride as this team gets better.

You don't want the team to lose games just to prove you're smarter, do you?

[PackerBlues]

Re: Offense

See, now that was a pretty good post!

But since I continue to be rather optimistic about the team over the next three to five years I would like to use your evidence to prove another point:

Your incontrovertible facts demonstrate that, in all likelihood given the early tough schedule, a Green Bay record of 8-8 at the conclusion of this year would be a benchmark of growth and improvement rather than stagnation--especially if any more than one or two of the 8 wins come against teams with winning records.

Lay down your anger, brother, and enjoy the ride as this team gets better.

You don't want the team to lose games just to prove you're smarter, do you?

I started another post yesterday, that did not seem to catch on, whereas I pointed out that you can now go to www.nfl.com, and look at video clips of highlights of every game from last year. (perhaps even from years before, dunno, didnt look)
What suprised me, looking at some of those clips, was that some of our young guys last year did in fact show some real promise. I really enjoyed looking back at Favre threading the needle while passing to these young WR's. It gave me a hell of a lot more hope for the upcoming season, than watching a "watered down" offense in a preseason game.

[woodbuck27]

Haha, B.

I'm not going to paint TT into a record expectation because so much goes into it. I expect TT to keep this team improving and we should be at least 8-8 if we improve, but I'm not going to give up on TT if the record falls short an other things show signs of being on the up and up.

I will give up if the team shows it's not getting better. If we take steps back and it's clear we're not competitive. I've said that before and I've promised to jump off TT's wagon if that happened. I've never promised to jump off based on the record. Too much goes into it.

For this season to be a success, for me it's all about the playoffs. I expect NO LESS than 9 wins and absolutely no games were we are completely blown out from start to finish.

Then don't get too close to a hangman's knot.

[PackerBlues]

[quote="PaCkFan_n_MD"]

For this season to be a success, for me it's all about the playoffs. I expect NO LESS than 9 wins and absolutely no games were we are completely blown out from start to finish.

I think that those are reasonable benchmarks, I myself would add, no less than 20 TD passes for Brett Favre. (he had 18 last year, and needs 20 TD's to tie Marino's record of 13 seasons with 20 or more TD's)

[superfan]

Re: Offense

Teddy is a very poor evaluator when it comes to offense. The facts support that view. He virtually gave a way a blue chip WR that keeps a D honest.

Javon pulled a MikeMac, and once he started down that ugly road, there was virtually no chance to get fair market value for him in trade. He was an underpaid star player who wanted to get paid, and while I understand his frustration and agree that he deserved to get paid, that is a dangerous precedent to set, to give in to any player who threatens to hold out for more money.

I don't think it is fair to hang Walker leaving entirely on Thompson's head. If the Packer front office operates like any other corporation, I assume Thompson, Harlan, and the rest of the brain trust had many meetings about what to do with Walker, and it was likely a group decision. I could be completely wrong, I have no connections within the organization.

Walker, McKenzie, Fraud, Moss, Iverson and KG in the NBA - once it is general knowledge that a player is on his way out the door, the trade market value drops significantly. If TT is one of the reasons why Walker wanted out, then sure, I would blame him for that. But considering that every team in the league knew it was a fire sale, what are the other options?

Anyone with just a little understanding of the game knows you must either have a passing game that can stretch the field or a running game that can keep the D honest. We have NEITHER and several of you are gonna learn just exactly what that means.

No argument from me here, except that to be a really good offense you need to have a passing game that can stretch the field AND a running game that can keep the D honest.

This offense is going to struggle AGAIN.

Seems to be little doubt about that. Agreed.

Just how many years do we have to rank at the bottom in RZ effieiency and points scored before it becomes obvious that Teddy has NO CLUE when it comes to building an offense?

I think the brutal Red Zone efficiency is a direct result of the decimation of the interior OL (Wahle, Rivera, Flanagan) several years ago. Plus, Ahman Green has been battling injuries the last couple years. We entered last season with an incredibly inexperienced interior line, probably one of the lowest rated lines in the entire league. As a result, max protect was called on a high percentage of plays, which means fewer targets available to catch passes. I don't disagree with the decision to use the max protect so frequently, considering the state of the OL. Gotta protect the franchise behind center.

All of this amounts to a domino effect - inexperienced line + aging superstar QB + banged up aging RB = max protect and ineffective running game = lousy red zone offense. Oops, forgot to carry the TE who suddenly forgot how to play football.

But I fail to see how this proves that Thompson knows nothing about building an offense. Will Whitticker was obviously no superstar, and Klemm and O'Dwyer were lousy signings, but Jennings looks like he has the potential to be special. Colledge and Spitz could be fixtures on the line for years. Wells is at least an average NFL center, maybe above average, with some upside. Jones at least hasn't disappointed. Clowney hasn't shown much yet, but he is a guy that the "draft experts" had projected higher than a 5th round pick, so he's a decent value gamble at that point.

Sure, I wish we had a better offense, and I wish we were able to sign some playmakers (MOSS!) in FA, but I don't have a lot of complaints with the draft picks. Nobody hits on every, or even most, draft picks and signings.

I do have some serious issues with how FA was handled this year, particularly in regards to the weakest positions - TE, S, RB after Ahman was not resigned. It's inexcusable that no help was found in those areas.

Also this slow cautious approach that some of you seem to be so proud of, does not guarentee success nor does it make a GM out to be a genious. The NFL is modeled to build a team much quicker than in the past. Some of you are so quick to except mediocrity, that's it's down-right funny.

I favor the building approach over the "sacrifice the future to save my job today" approach, but it is nothing to be proud (or ashamed) of, nor does it guarantee success or make the GM out to be a genius. And as far as accepting mediocrity goes, isn't that what we were doing in the early 2000s, with playoff "one and dones"? Backloading contracts, signing FAs, whatever duct tape we could throw together to keep that playoff contender going, even though those teams had no real SB aspirations. I would argue that this approach is more aggressive - sacrifice the present for a better chance at a Super Bowl ring in the future. That's not accepting mediocrity, that is taking a serious risk.

Biggest flaws I see now is that this may not be the right approach considering the time is ticking with Favre, and if it is agreed that this is inherently a risky approach, then the front office should be taking more chances in FA then going out on a limb to sign CB Frank Walker.

[PackerTimer]

[quote="PackerBlues"]

For this season to be a success, for me it's all about the playoffs. I expect NO LESS than 9 wins and absolutely no games were we are completely blown out from start to finish.

I think that those are reasonable benchmarks, I myself would add, no less than 20 TD passes for Brett Favre. (he had 18 last year, and needs 20 TD's to tie Marino's record of 13 seasons with 20 or more TD's)

So, if we finish 10-6 and Farve only throws 10 touchdowns, the season is a failure? It's highly unlikely that we win 10 games if Brett doesn't throw 20 scores, but if it happens the season will be a great success.

[PackerBlues]

wow, there is something wrong with the quote thingy.

[woodbuck27]

Re: Offense

Teddy is a very poor evaluator when it comes to offense. The facts support that view. He virtually gave a way a blue chip WR that keeps a D honest.

Javon pulled a MikeMac, and once he started down that ugly road, there was virtually no chance to get fair market value for him in trade. He was an underpaid star player who wanted to get paid, and while I understand his frustration and agree that he deserved to get paid, that is a dangerous precedent to set, to give in to any player who threatens to hold out for more money.

I don't think it is fair to hang Walker leaving entirely on Thompson's head. If the Packer front office operates like any other corporation, I assume Thompson, Harlan, and the rest of the brain trust had many meetings about what to do with Walker, and it was likely a group decision. I could be completely wrong, I have no connections within the organization.

Walker, McKenzie, Fraud, Moss, Iverson and KG in the NBA - once it is general knowledge that a player is on his way out the door, the trade market value drops significantly. If TT is one of the reasons why Walker wanted out, then sure, I would blame him for that. But considering that every team in the league knew it was a fire sale, what are the other options?

Anyone with just a little understanding of the game knows you must either have a passing game that can stretch the field or a running game that can keep the D honest. We have NEITHER and several of you are gonna learn just exactly what that means.

No argument from me here, except that to be a really good offense you need to have a passing game that can stretch the field AND a running game that can keep the D honest.

This offense is going to struggle AGAIN.

Seems to be little doubt about that. Agreed.

Just how many years do we have to rank at the bottom in RZ effieiency and points scored before it becomes obvious that Teddy has NO CLUE when it comes to building an offense?

I think the brutal Red Zone efficiency is a direct result of the decimation of the interior OL (Wahle, Rivera, Flanagan) several years ago. Plus, Ahman Green has been battling injuries the last couple years. We entered last season with an incredibly inexperienced interior line, probably one of the lowest rated lines in the entire league. As a result, max protect was called on a high percentage of plays, which means fewer targets available to catch passes. I don't disagree with the decision to use the max protect so frequently, considering the state of the OL. Gotta protect the franchise behind center.

All of this amounts to a domino effect - inexperienced line + aging superstar QB + banged up aging RB = max protect and ineffective running game = lousy red zone offense. Oops, forgot to carry the TE who suddenly forgot how to play football.

But I fail to see how this proves that Thompson knows nothing about building an offense. Will Whitticker was obviously no superstar, and Klemm and O'Dwyer were lousy signings, but Jennings looks like he has the potential to be special. Colledge and Spitz could be fixtures on the line for years. Wells is at least an average NFL center, maybe above average, with some upside. Jones at least hasn't disappointed. Clowney hasn't shown much yet, but he is a guy that the "draft experts" had projected higher than a 5th round pick, so he's a decent value gamble at that point.

Sure, I wish we had a better offense, and I wish we were able to sign some playmakers (MOSS!) in FA, but I don't have a lot of complaints with the draft picks. Nobody hits on every, or even most, draft picks and signings.

I do have some serious issues with how FA was handled this year, particularly in regards to the weakest positions - TE, S, RB after Ahman was not resigned. It's inexcusable that no help was found in those areas.

Also this slow cautious approach that some of you seem to be so proud of, does not guarentee success nor does it make a GM out to be a genious. The NFL is modeled to build a team much quicker than in the past. Some of you are so quick to except mediocrity, that's it's down-right funny.

I favor the building approach over the "sacrifice the future to save my job today" approach, but it is nothing to be proud (or ashamed) of, nor does it guarantee success or make the GM out to be a genius. And as far as accepting mediocrity goes, isn't that what we were doing in the early 2000s, with playoff "one and dones"? Backloading contracts, signing FAs, whatever duct tape we could throw together to keep that playoff contender going, even though those teams had no real SB aspirations. I would argue that this approach is more aggressive - sacrifice the present for a better chance at a Super Bowl ring in the future. That's not accepting mediocrity, that is taking a serious risk.

Biggest flaws I see now is that this may not be the right approach considering the time is ticking with Favre, and if it is agreed that this is inherently a risky approach, then the front office should be taking more chances in FA then going out on a limb to sign CB Frank Walker.

"I don't think it is fair to hang Walker leaving entirely on Thompson's head." Superfan

I agree. Javon got his 'Fruit of the Looms' in a twist and wanted the $ or out.

TT had to hold right and in this case wait and see for another half seaason or more before an extention, certainly not buckle to the incipant one's demands.

[PackerBlues]

Re: Offense

"I don't think it is fair to hang Walker leaving entirely on Thompson's head." Superfan

I agree. Javon got his 'Fruit of the Looms' in a twist and wanted the $ or out.

TT had to hold right and in this case wait and see for another half seaason or more before an extention, certainly not buckle to the incipant one's demands.

It seems to me, that Thompson is building up a history of not being able to get deals done. Ferguson being the most recent.

Walker, Moss/Raiders, Ahman Green, and now we find out that the Texans have an interest in Ferguson. Rather than quietly make a deal with the Texans, it was announced that the Packers would be looking to trade Ferguson, but that they would cut him if a trade could not be made. A trade with anyone became impossible as soon as it was announced that Fergy would be cut.

[Scott Campbell]

Re: Offense

A trade with anyone became impossible as soon as it was announced that Fergy would be cut.

A trade was impossible becuase Fergeson sucked and had no trade value, and had one of Mike Sherman's patented overinflated contracts. No amount of posturing was going to change that.

Over the next few weeks hundereds of players are going to be cut from among all the NFL teams. And almost all of them will be let go for nothing in return. And like this transaction, it will mean absolutely nothing.

[PackerBlues]

Re: Offense

Javon pulled a MikeMac, and once he started down that ugly road, there was virtually no chance to get fair market value for him in trade. He was an underpaid star player who wanted to get paid, and while I understand his frustration and agree that he deserved to get paid, that is a dangerous precedent to set, to give in to any player who threatens to hold out for more money.

I don't think it is fair to hang Walker leaving entirely on Thompson's head. If the Packer front office operates like any other corporation, I assume Thompson, Harlan, and the rest of the brain trust had many meetings about what to do with Walker, and it was likely a group decision. I could be completely wrong, I have no connections within the organization.

Walker, McKenzie, Fraud, Moss, Iverson and KG in the NBA - once it is general knowledge that a player is on his way out the door, the trade market value drops significantly. If TT is one of the reasons why Walker wanted out, then sure, I would blame him for that. But considering that every team in the league knew it was a fire sale, what are the other options?

Good points, and well said. I think its a shame that punks like Walker and McKienze get away with the posturing and shit that they do to get out of a contract. They sign a contract, and they should be held to it.

I joined the military, and hated it, but I had signed a four year contract. If I had pissed and moaned about it and said "fuck you, I dont like it here, release me from my contract or I will not work for you any more", I would have ended up sitting in a jail cell.

In cases like this, the NFL needs to step up and make examples of people like Walker. Here is just a few ideas of how I would like to see people like Walker dealt with:

Give them a full year suspension without pay.

Allow them to break their contract, but put them into a new salary bracket for a set amount of time that is less than the veterans minimum.

As soon as a player starts demanding a trade or anything of that kind, give the team the option of voiding the players contract. Then, make it so that any team wanting to sign that player, would have to give up exactly what it cost the original team to get him in the first place. In Walkers case, his contract would have been voided and the Packers would have to recieve a first round pick and the difference between a 2nd and 5th from any team wanting to sign him.

Everything about the Walker situation was bad for the Packers organization. What it cost us to get him in the first place, the time he spent wasting a roster spot, what the Packers ended up getting for him. Nothing good came from having Walker in GB, and I think its a shame that the NFL does not have the balls to step in on situations like this. You see players and coaches getting fined all the time for doing or saying things that the NFL finds as negative to the NFL, why wont they step in on situations like this?

[PackerTimer]

Re: Offense

Javon pulled a MikeMac, and once he started down that ugly road, there was virtually no chance to get fair market value for him in trade. He was an underpaid star player who wanted to get paid, and while I understand his frustration and agree that he deserved to get paid, that is a dangerous precedent to set, to give in to any player who threatens to hold out for more money.

I don't think it is fair to hang Walker leaving entirely on Thompson's head. If the Packer front office operates like any other corporation, I assume Thompson, Harlan, and the rest of the brain trust had many meetings about what to do with Walker, and it was likely a group decision. I could be completely wrong, I have no connections within the organization.

Walker, McKenzie, Fraud, Moss, Iverson and KG in the NBA - once it is general knowledge that a player is on his way out the door, the trade market value drops significantly. If TT is one of the reasons why Walker wanted out, then sure, I would blame him for that. But considering that every team in the league knew it was a fire sale, what are the other options?

Good points, and well said. I think its a shame that punks like Walker and McKienze get away with the posturing and shit that they do to get out of a contract. They sign a contract, and they should be held to it.

I joined the military, and hated it, but I had signed a four year contract. If I had pissed and moaned about it and said "fuck you, I dont like it here, release me from my contract or I will not work for you any more", I would have ended up sitting in a jail cell.

In cases like this, the NFL needs to step up and make examples of people like Walker. Here is just a few ideas of how I would like to see people like Walker dealt with:

Give them a full year suspension without pay.

Allow them to break their contract, but put them into a new salary bracket for a set amount of time that is less than the veterans minimum.

As soon as a player starts demanding a trade or anything of that kind, give the team the option of voiding the players contract. Then, make it so that any team wanting to sign that player, would have to give up exactly what it cost the original team to get him in the first place. In Walkers case, his contract would have been voided and the Packers would have to recieve a first round pick and the difference between a 2nd and 5th from any team wanting to sign him.

Everything about the Walker situation was bad for the Packers organization. What it cost us to get him in the first place, the time he spent wasting a roster spot, what the Packers ended up getting for him. Nothing good came from having Walker in GB, and I think its a shame that the NFL does not have the balls to step in on situations like this. You see players and coaches getting fined all the time for doing or saying things that the NFL finds as negative to the NFL, why wont they step in on situations like this?

I have no problem with any of these ideas. However, I'm pretty sure the NFLPA would say a big hell no if the NFL tried to write anything like this into the next collective bargainning agreement.

[Badgerinmaine]

Skinbasket,

Is that a reject Teletubbie in your signature picture?

That is the one and only Prince from the world of Katamari Damacy, son of the King of All Cosmos. and he carries much more distinction than a "reject teletubbie!"




.

Reject teletubbie? No. More like Bill Cowher as an exotic dancer.

[PackerBlues]

Anyone else find themselves wishing that Thompson had gone through the trouble of picking up an extra veteran WR or RB last night?