And The Winner Is......

[BallHawk]

Re: GM's

Do you think Bill Walsh would have let Ryan Longwell go if he had known he would have gone on to become at one point the NFL's most accurate kicker of all time? Does that mean that Bill Walsh is a bad GM? No, it means you win some and you lose some, and sometimes a player will surprise you.

Bill Walsh wasn't the GM when Ryan Longwell was claimed off waivers in '97. I don't remember who it was, but Walsh was '99 to '01.

[The Leaper]

Re: GM's

By no means is Rayner a bad kicker. He isn't a world beater but I could see him being in the top 5-10 as he matures as a player.

I agree with that. Rayner is not a bad kicker, and he likely will go on to reasonable success elsewhere. I just think it is slowly becoming evident that Crosby has just as strong a leg and probably a little more accuracy. Crosby looks like a good draft pick to this point.

With good kickers being in rather short supply, hopefully Thompson can work out a conditional draft pick for Rayner from someone who wants to make sure they get him instead of allowing him to hit the open market.

[BallHawk]

Re: GM's

Sure, Angelo hit with Gould. He also missed with Michael Haynes. Ted hit with AJ Hawk, Ted missed with Ahmad Carroll. You win some, you lose some.

Ted did not pick Ahmad Carroll.

Damn, I always get the '04 and '05 drafts mixed up.

[BallHawk]

Re: GM's

By no means is Rayner a bad kicker. He isn't a world beater but I could see him being in the top 5-10 as he matures as a player.

He isn't bad, but he's average. You just can't ignore that he was a 75% kicker. For the number of attempts he had, the only kicker worse then him was Olindo Mare.

As an example, Stephen Gostkowski was statically better then Rayner last year, as a rookie. Mason Crosby was just as good a prospect, perhaps even a better prospect, then Gostkowski.

The ceiling with Crosby is higher then it is with Rayner. That's what it really comes down to, with me at least.

[Partial]

Re: GM's

Do you think Bill Walsh would have let Ryan Longwell go if he had known he would have gone on to become at one point the NFL's most accurate kicker of all time? Does that mean that Bill Walsh is a bad GM? No, it means you win some and you lose some, and sometimes a player will surprise you.

Bill Walsh wasn't the GM when Ryan Longwell was claimed off waivers in '97. I don't remember who it was, but Walsh was '99 to '01.

Way to completely miss the point

[Partial]

Re: GM's

By no means is Rayner a bad kicker. He isn't a world beater but I could see him being in the top 5-10 as he matures as a player.

He isn't bad, but he's average. You just can't ignore that he was a 75% kicker. For the number of attempts he had, the only kicker worse then him was Olindo Mare.

As an example, Stephen Gostkowski was statically better then Rayner last year, as a rookie. Mason Crosby was just as good a prospect, perhaps even a better prospect, then Gostkowski.

The ceiling with Crosby is higher then it is with Rayner. That's what it really comes down to, with me at least.

I am too lazy to look up the stats but I would think that he had a higher percentage of his kicks from 40+ yards. He seems to be alright. I don't really care who wins but I would guess that Rayner is in the drivers seat given how neck and neck they are.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Re: GM's

He isn't bad, but he's average. You just can't ignore that he was a 75% kicker. For the number of attempts he had, the only kicker worse then him was Olindo Mare.

As an example, Stephen Gostkowski was statically better then Rayner last year, as a rookie. Mason Crosby was just as good a prospect, perhaps even a better prospect, then Gostkowski.

The ceiling with Crosby is higher then it is with Rayner. That's what it really comes down to, with me at least.

Bad example, in my opinion. Gostkowski made 20 of 26--which is a slightly better percentage of 76.9%. However, he only had five attempts over 40 yards. Rayner made 74.3%, but had 14 attempts over 40 yards. There kickoff average and touchbacks were virtually even also.

Rayner is no slouch as a prospect. He was a 6th round pick--just like Crosby. Most kickers take a couple of years before they are All-Pros--just like any other position. I think Crosby will win the job, but I don't expect him to be a world beater his first year. I think Crosby has a higher ceiling, but not a ton higher. To me, they are pretty similar in a lot of ways. Both are good prospects, and both will be kicking in the NFL for a long time.

Crosby made just 19 of 28 FGs last year--which is 67.9%. He had 14 attempts over 40 though. He was 21 of 28 the year before--for 75%. He was 23 of 29 in 2004--for 79%. It's not like he's guaranteed to kick ass.

The thing I did like about Rayner is that when he had a miss or was having a rough game, he didn't let it get to him. He responded. He missed two FGs in the rain against Minnesota, but made the game winner. He did that in other games. To me, that shows a lot. That's the kind of thing you look for in a young player.

[the_idle_threat]

Geez, we got us a kicker thread! What's next? Who should be our long snapper?

Good point.

We've got two very talented young kickers. We'll keep one and the other will go on to play for another team. Probably quite well, too. Seems like a good problem to have.

Really doesn't matter to me which one sticks around, because they seem to be pretty close in terms of talent.

[Partial]

Geez, we got us a kicker thread! What's next? Who should be our long snapper?

Good point.

We've got two very talented young kickers. We'll keep one and the other will go on to play for another team. Probably quite well, too. Seems like a good problem to have.

Really doesn't matter to me which one sticks around, because they seem to be pretty close in terms of talent.

Same. I would say stick with the guy you have if they evaluate to even unless players don't like him. Continuity is good.

[woodbuck27]

Re: GM's

Here's another FACT for the people who claim Teddy is doing such a marvelous job. Angelo finds Robbie Gould on the scrap heap and the guy is a stud. Teddy finds Raynor on the scrap heap and he hits 75%. Pretty easy example................

Sometimes it's just hit and miss. GMs can't be right all the time. Angelo has made his fair share of mistakes, as has Ted. Jerry has been a GM since 2001, Ted since 2005. We can't accurately compare the two GMs, as of now.

Sure, Angelo hit with Gould. He also missed with Michael Haynes. Ted hit with AJ Hawk, Ted missed with Ahmad Carroll. You win some, you lose some.

Angelo has accomplished more then Ted, but he's been around the block a few more times then Ted. You can't expect Ted to be up to par with guys that have more experience.

Listen, I'm not a TT lover, I'm not a TT hater. I'll side with Ted 7 out of 10 times, but I'm not going to back him up just for the hell of it.

Ted isn't doing marvelous, I don't think anybody was expecting him to. We just have to let time take its course and see what happens.

Smart stance BH.

I have no doubt that TT is doing the best he is capable of and the main reason for that is he just didn't come to us all dressed, as advertised.

We simply got a simple man who was given an opportunity to manage one of, if not the best organization's in the NFL. He went from office boy to being our GM in the echo of the likes of Ron Wolfe. He has had to learn the job.

Tough act to follow. RW.

He won't be measured up against Mike Sherman but the man Mike Sherman was measured against. Ted Thompson also was handed a team with an aging NFL Icon at QB (a palyer with a massive fan following and one of the most beloved people in all of PRO sports). A QB on the precipice of setting every record for a QB known the GOD.

It hasn't been easy for TT nor would it be for anyone.