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  • It’s time to fish or cut bait…

    It's pretty clear that the Packers’ OL is undersized. Compare the Packers’ and Cowboys OL’s. No wonder our OL get “pushed around” (as McGinn writes):

    PACKERS/COWBOYS
    CLIFTON 6’5” 320/ ADAMS 6’7” 340
    COLLEDGE 6’4” 305/ KOSIER 6’5” 305
    WELLS 6’2” 295/ GURODE 6’4” 312
    SPITZ 6’3” 300/ DAVIS 6’6” 366
    TAUCHER 6’3” 315/ COLOMBO 6’8” 320

    PACKER SUBS/DALLAS SUBS
    COSTON 6’3” 313/ McQUISTAN6’6” 315
    BARBRE 6’4” 300/ PROCTER 6’4” 305
    MOLL 6’5” 304/ BERGER 6’5” 305
    PALMER 6’2” 311/ MARTEN 6’7” 309
    NONE/ FREE 6’6” 324

    When the pre-McCarthy holdovers, Clifton and Taucher, are replaced, the Packers OL will be at even more of a size disadvantage.

    But wait, it’s no accident the Packers’ OL is undersized. McCarthy and Thompson hand-picked this current OL.

    Why give up size? Because the highly touted zone blocking scheme requires quicker, more athletic linemen. This usually also translates into “smaller linemen.” The advertised advantage of the zone blocking scheme – a vastly improved running game – was supposed to more than offset the size disadvantage.

    However, the zone blocking scheme requires that individual linemen move in concert as never before. Zone cut blocking requires split-second timing with the ball carrier. This quote from Packers.com speaks to what went wrong against the Eagles on Sunday:

    “The difficulties with the ground game were broken down into three areas - the push on the front side of the play, the cut-blocking on the back side, and the angle being taken by the running back. Offensive coordinator Joe Philbin said it wasn't always a case of the line not doing its job, but not executing with the proper timing or finish to its maneuvers.

    ”’When we got some guys to cut on the ground, we were a little too quick at times,’ Philbin said. ‘We wouldn't take our full run and cut. We'd kind of get them down too fast and then they'd get up and make the play. So we have to get that corrected there.’”

    Apparently, because of the injury-dealing nature of cut-blocking, the Packers’ OL cannot hone their zone blocking timing and techniques in practice against the Packer defense. Therefore, the only opportunity to gain expertise in zone blocking is live action against another teams’ defense, which means in preseason or regular season games.

    However, even in preseason and regular season games, the Packer OL can hone their zone blocking timing and technique ONLY when the Packers actually run the ball. (My understanding is that pass protection blocking has absolutely nothing to do with the zone blocking scheme.)

    Isn’t it reasonable then to conclude that Sunday’s breakdown of the zone blocking scheme was due to not enough reps by the starters in the preseason, not enough rushing plays in the preseason when the starters were in there, or some combination of the two?

    Isn’t it also reasonable to conclude that if McCarthy only calls 16 rushing plays a game, instead of say 32, the Packers’ OL will take just that much longer to perfect their zone blocking since they can’t really perfect it in practice?

    Here is the crux of the matter. Because the Packers’ linemen have been selected to fit the zone blocking scheme, the Packers ARE, like it or not, a zone blocking team, which means primarily a rushing team, not a passing team.

    Another way to put it: if the Packers are going to consistently throw the ball 40 or 50 times a game and run it only 20 time, why zone block in the first place?

    Why not simply go with a new set of Dallas-sized linemen whose forte is pass protection?

    McCarthy has been circumspect and contradictory when quizzed about his pass-heavy offense. On the one hand he has said that he wants the Packers’ identity to be as a rushing team. On the other hand, he has said he calls a preponderance of passing plays because passing leads to scoring and game situations dictate passing.

    In my opinion you can’t have it both ways. McCarthy and the Packers have to bite the bullet, truly commit to zone blocking, i.e., rush the ball 35 or so times a game, and allow our OL a real opportunity to perfect the zone blocking scheme against live competition as quickly as possible.

    Or the Packers should junk the zone blocking scheme, bring in some Dallas-sized linemen and compete on an equal basis with the rest of the pass-happy NFL.

    As for me, I say we’ve gone too far down the zone blocking road to scrap it. I say McCarthy should truly commit to zone blocking and the running game by calling at least as many rushing plays as passing plays. If he does this, I’m confident that even Favre and the passing game would eventually benefit, and sooner rather than later, because our rushing game would vastly improve.

    Then again, maybe I’m just too “old school.”

    One thing is for sure. McCarthy could have rushed the ball on every single play and his offense could not have scored less points than it did on Sunday against the Eagles.

    Moreover, if he had rushed the ball on every single play against the Eagles, his zone blocking OL would have gained a ton of experience and would have been light years ahead of where it is now.
    One time Lombardi was disgusted with the team in practice and told them they were going to have to start with the basics. He held up a ball and said: "This is a football." McGee immediately called out, "Stop, coach, you're going too fast," and that gave everyone a laugh.
    John Maxymuk, Packers By The Numbers

  • #2
    A tad premature to do anything drastic. One thing that does hurt our run blocking in the ZBS is both of our tackles. Both are too big and both are not athletic enough to do what they need to do to make this work.
    Pass Jessica's Law and keep the predators behind bars for 25 years minimum. Vote out liberal, SP judges. Enforce all immigrant laws!

    Comment


    • #3
      bulldog,

      I completely agree. I guess I just don't think calling an equal amount of rushing and passing plays is "drastic."
      One time Lombardi was disgusted with the team in practice and told them they were going to have to start with the basics. He held up a ball and said: "This is a football." McGee immediately called out, "Stop, coach, you're going too fast," and that gave everyone a laugh.
      John Maxymuk, Packers By The Numbers

      Comment


      • #4
        It is if the wholes aren't there. We need to get the backs more involved in the short passing game. We were once great at screen passes, why don't we use them more. Those would have been nice against a blitzing team like Philly.
        Pass Jessica's Law and keep the predators behind bars for 25 years minimum. Vote out liberal, SP judges. Enforce all immigrant laws!

        Comment


        • #5
          Why even convert to "ZBS" with smaller lineman...

          In 2003, that was ONE OF THE BEST lines i've seen GB have... It was top 5 in the league... Green had over 1800 yards... Favre had tons of time... Why did we change to the ZBS its beyond me, I am more into the "power system" that SD/Dal uses (which GB had in 03)...

          Comment


          • #6
            Flanny was the center, Wahle was a big athletic G, Marco was a brawler and the two T's were younger and had less miles on them. They weren't huge but they weren't small. This group of five linemen were one of the leagues best at the time and it is a shame we didn't do ore with these players.
            Pass Jessica's Law and keep the predators behind bars for 25 years minimum. Vote out liberal, SP judges. Enforce all immigrant laws!

            Comment


            • #7
              Why even convert to "ZBS" with smaller lineman...
              I hate to say it, but I think one huge reason was financial. Denver uses ZBS and is able to find all-pro linemen and running backs in late draft rounds. They seem to just draft them and plug them into the system. The Packer thinking probably was we wouldn't be held hostage by high profile "key" players going free agent.
              One time Lombardi was disgusted with the team in practice and told them they were going to have to start with the basics. He held up a ball and said: "This is a football." McGee immediately called out, "Stop, coach, you're going too fast," and that gave everyone a laugh.
              John Maxymuk, Packers By The Numbers

              Comment


              • #8
                We were once great at screen passes, why don't we use them more.
                It's a mystery to me too. More dink and dunk passes and screen passes instead of all the downfield passes...and more rushing. The holes are never gonna be there if these guys don't get enough reps in the games. The downfield game will open up too, the more short passes and runs we commit to.
                One time Lombardi was disgusted with the team in practice and told them they were going to have to start with the basics. He held up a ball and said: "This is a football." McGee immediately called out, "Stop, coach, you're going too fast," and that gave everyone a laugh.
                John Maxymuk, Packers By The Numbers

                Comment


                • #9
                  this is kind of a cheap-shot by McGinn.

                  The offensive line isn't that small.

                  McGinn can throw out any pet theory a couple days after a disaster and it will sound credible. Where was he with this theory last year or this summer?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: It’s time to fish or cut bait…

                    Originally posted by Maxie the Taxi
                    It's pretty clear that the Packers’ OL is undersized. Compare the Packers’ and Cowboys OL’s. No wonder our OL get “pushed around” (as McGinn writes):

                    PACKERS/COWBOYS
                    CLIFTON 6’5” 320/ ADAMS 6’7” 340
                    COLLEDGE 6’4” 305/ KOSIER 6’5” 305
                    WELLS 6’2” 295/ GURODE 6’4” 312
                    SPITZ 6’3” 300/ DAVIS 6’6” 366
                    TAUCHER 6’3” 315/ COLOMBO 6’8” 320

                    PACKER SUBS/DALLAS SUBS
                    COSTON 6’3” 313/ McQUISTAN6’6” 315
                    BARBRE 6’4” 300/ PROCTER 6’4” 305
                    MOLL 6’5” 304/ BERGER 6’5” 305
                    PALMER 6’2” 311/ MARTEN 6’7” 309
                    NONE/ FREE 6’6” 324
                    So he picks a line that has 340 lb and 366 lb starters and uses that to prove a point? The other three Packer starters are outweighed by a combined total of 22 lbs. The 4 subs are outweighed by a combined total of 6 lbs. Doesn't seem all that significant to me.

                    I would be more impressed by his argument if he compared each Packer to the league or conference averages for the players at their positions,

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Colledge, Wells, Spitz - 305, 295, 300
                      Wahle, Flanagan, Rivera - 304, 297, 307.

                      What's the big deal?

                      It's NOT their size, it's how they are playing and/or what they are being asked to do.

                      Wahle and Rivera were pretty much useless until their third years, and were not good when they first became starters.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I agree with Harlan, cheap shot,

                        Big deal, who cares every team takes linemen based on the skill set they have to better the system that you currently running. You would like multi-dimensional players but that isn't always available.

                        If anything this offensive line is a mixture o young players, and veterans that are both relatively new to the system. Colledge is more of a left tackle than he is a guard, and I just think Scott Wells might not be the answer at center, he is quick, but he still can't even dominate linebacker at the second level.

                        Right now I could go on and on, but size isn't the reason or answer at this point.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Funny thing is, a year ago many including Wolf said Clifton and Tauscher would do fine in the new offense, especially Tauscher who is a lot more athletic than people give him credit for. There also was an article just before Tauscher got hurt last year that said he had picked it up the best of all the linemen, and was making few mistakes. Now, after one game this year, the tackles aren't right for it.

                          I will raise again the question I raised earlier, is it the players or the coaches that have made this offense fizzle?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Many of us would agree, if you know what you're doing - SIZE DOESN'T MATTER

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: It’s time to fish or cut bait…

                              Originally posted by Patler
                              Originally posted by Maxie the Taxi
                              It's pretty clear that the Packers’ OL is undersized. Compare the Packers’ and Cowboys OL’s. No wonder our OL get “pushed around” (as McGinn writes):

                              PACKERS/COWBOYS
                              CLIFTON 6’5” 320/ ADAMS 6’7” 340
                              COLLEDGE 6’4” 305/ KOSIER 6’5” 305
                              WELLS 6’2” 295/ GURODE 6’4” 312
                              SPITZ 6’3” 300/ DAVIS 6’6” 366
                              TAUCHER 6’3” 315/ COLOMBO 6’8” 320

                              PACKER SUBS/DALLAS SUBS
                              COSTON 6’3” 313/ McQUISTAN6’6” 315
                              BARBRE 6’4” 300/ PROCTER 6’4” 305
                              MOLL 6’5” 304/ BERGER 6’5” 305
                              PALMER 6’2” 311/ MARTEN 6’7” 309
                              NONE/ FREE 6’6” 324
                              So he picks a line that has 340 lb and 366 lb starters and uses that to prove a point? The other three Packer starters are outweighed by a combined total of 22 lbs. The 4 subs are outweighed by a combined total of 6 lbs. Doesn't seem all that significant to me.

                              I would be more impressed by his argument if he compared each Packer to the league or conference averages for the players at their positions,
                              And there biggest guy, Davis, isn't any more effective than Spitz, even outweighing him by 66 lbs.

                              Comment

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