Running game questions for the knowledgable

[AtlPackFan]

It would appear - to my untrained eyes - that the running game has regressed since the advent of the ZBS in Green Bay. Clifton and Tauscher don't seem to fit the scheme nor do either seem particularly fond of it. Cooledge and Spitz don't seem to be the great finds TT told us they were. And I'm not at all sure what to make of Wells.

So...for those more knowledgable, I have questions:

1. Is it possible that Clifton and Tauscher see the ZBS as chicken-shit way to run block and aren't giving a 100% effort? I don't remember either of them being this bad in the old scheme and it is hard for me to believe that the only problem is that they are this ill fit for the ZBS???

2. If Cooledge and Spitz aren't the answer at guard, where do they go for help? Can they move either one to tackle/center? I seem to remember Cooledge getting eaten alive subbing for Clifton last year at tackle? But then I am old and may not remember correctly.

3. While I realize the scheme came with McCarthy, at what point do you say "we don't have the personnel to run this scheme" and go to something different?

4. Finally, if you are McCarthy, do you keep the line in Green Bay over the bye and make them walk/run through the damn plays over and over again until they get it correct 100% of the time?

This inability to run has really become infuriating to me because otherwise we seem to have a solid team. My understanding of the idea behind the scheme is that every play is suppose to yield positive yards and that as the game wears on the gains get larger. I haven't seen this at all. In fact Sunday the running got worse as the game went on.

I'm probably 100 wrong on all of this but this is really bothering me so I need to ask the questions. Hopefully, some of you can help me see the light at the end of what I perceive to be a long, dark tunnel.

Excuse the spelling on the player names...I doubt I have the names correct.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Re: Running game questions for the knowledgable

Not to say I'm knowledgable, but I'll hazard a response. Colledge, Spitz, and Coston may not be run blocking well. However, let's not look past the fact the OL is pass blocking very well this year, and not because of max protect.

1. Is it possible that Clifton and Tauscher see the ZBS as chicken-shit way to run block and aren't giving a 100% effort? I don't remember either of them being this bad in the old scheme and it is hard for me to believe that the only problem is that they are this ill fit for the ZBS?

It's possible they don't like the system. It's likely that they don't fit the system. However, I doubt they aren't giving 100%.

2. If Cooledge and Spitz aren't the answer at guard, where do they go for help? Can they move either one to tackle/center? I seem to remember Cooledge getting eaten alive subbing for Clifton last year at tackle? But then I am old and may not remember correctly.

Spitz hasn't even been starting. Coston has. He has talent. He hasn't played much. He needs more time before we can fully judge him. Spitz seems a better fit at OC and Colledge seems a better fit at OT to me. Colledge did poorly at the start of his first game at LT (Taylor got 2 sacks early), but played well after that when called upon.

3. While I realize the scheme came with McCarthy, at what point do you say "we don't have the personnel to run this scheme" and go to something different?

I think it's certainly possible to scrap it if we don't see marked improvement for the rest of the year. It's probably still unlikely--since McCarthy grew up with the scheme.

Let's remember that most teams run some type of ZBS at times. Let's also remember that we don't use the ZBS exclusively. We haven't been exactly great at our power running either. Of course, they the OL are bad fits. Quite honestly, since the second game of the season, we haven't been horrible running ball. The Chargers, Vikings, and Bears (with Tommie Harris) are three of the best run defenses in the league, and we had some success in the Chargers and Bears games when we have run the ball. To me, it seems like we are getting better, and hopefully it gets to a point where we are at least decent running the ball.

[Partial]

On the first run of the game where Wynn went for like 10-12 yards, they definitely pulled Juice into the hole.

[AtlPackFan]

Re: Running game questions for the knowledgable

It's possible they don't like the system. It's likely that they don't fit the system. However, I doubt they aren't giving 100%.

Let me rephrase this because your right, no one that has got to this level is not going to give 100% because they don't like a scheme.

But lets say...and this is reaching a bit...that over the years they have played against teams that have run this scheme and have heard some of their own defensive teams bitch about the "questionable" blocking techniques of the scheme. Perhaps they have even seen a defensive teammate hurt that could be blamed on the blocking scheme.

Now, all of sudden they are running that same scheme and the possible repercussions of their running that scheme is in the back of their mind.

A play develops where a block they have to make - while legal - could end up being up around the knees and could result in injury for the opposing player. Is it possible...being in the league as long as they have been and the respect players develop for one another over time...that they pull up just a bit on that play?

Just a question. Again, I am probably way off base.

Also, I knew Coston was at right guard now but wasn't that suppose to be Spitz position...what he was drafted for???

[HarveyWallbangers]

It sounds like a lot of teams run the ZBS at times, so I don't think it has much bearing. The fact they may feel it doesn't fit their strengths could way on them though.

[esoxx]

Re: Running game questions for the knowledgable

Cooledge and Spitz don't seem to be the great finds... .

Isn't Cooledge that dude from the old "White Shadow" show?

Where's Salami and Haywood?

[esoxx]

I have serious concerns about the guard play on this team. Colledge seems to be regressing and has been downright terrible at times.
Coston is trying to find his way and seems to have potential but who knows. Another year lost sticking Spitz at RG and then switching.

This makes four different RG's in the last four seasons: Rivera, Whitticker, Spitz, Coston.

Time to sh!t or get off the pot at this position.

[3irty1]

The ZBS isn't that different from what they used to run. Its not something they do all the time either. Its a good philosophy to have and other lines have been sucessful with it.

[Partial]

The ZBS isn't that different from what they used to run. Its not something they do all the time either. Its a good philosophy to have and other lines have been sucessful with it.

Umm... It is quite a bit different. The bread and butter of the Sherman run game was misdirections and pulling a guard and having either a guard or a fullback getting into the second level.

This system is completely different and predicated completely on offensive linemen double teaming and moving on to the next level.

This is something you see in college a lot more than the pros.

[Bretsky]

I have serious concerns about the guard play on this team. Colledge seems to be regressing and has been downright terrible at times.
Coston is trying to find his way and seems to have potential but who knows. Another year lost sticking Spitz at RG and then switching.

This makes four different RG's in the last four seasons: Rivera, Whitticker, Spitz, Coston.

Time to sh!t or get off the pot at this position.

This is why you consider bringing along these OL slowly IMO and making sure you have competent veterans on the roster in case they are playing below par.

We have a whole bunch of unprovens on this roster; at this point I don't know if Colledge will every be a good run blocker, and if Spits, Coston, or Moll will ever be players. Maybe they thought these guys would be a lot better as run blockers this year; or maybe they are willing to let things play out and fall as they may.

[HarveyWallbangers]

You aren't going to have competent veteran starters at every position--especially when you lose guys like Wahle and Rivera. Did you want them to sign a high-priced FAs to start in front of their young players? Or more guys like Klemm and O'Dwyer? Besides, we have competent veterans starting in front of Harrell at DT, so he can develop slowly, and people bitch that we drafted him.

[Bretsky]

You aren't going to have competent veteran starters at every position--especially when you lose guys like Wahle and Rivera. Did you want them to sign a high-priced FAs to start in front of their young players? Or more guys like Klemm and O'Dwyer? Besides, we have competent veterans starting in front of Harrell at DT, so he can develop slowly, and people bitch that we drafted him.

I never said anything about high priced free agents, but I'd have liked a step above Klemm. I actually liked Rugy; guys like him who were capable of stepping in and giving a bit below average play if the young guys sucked

[esoxx]

You aren't going to have competent veteran starters at every position--especially when you lose guys like Wahle and Rivera. Did you want them to sign a high-priced FAs to start in front of their young players? Or more guys like Klemm and O'Dwyer? Besides, we have competent veterans starting in front of Harrell at DT, so he can develop slowly, and people bitch that we drafted him.

The Klemm and O'Dwyer names are always thrown out whenever someone mentions a vet O'lineman should be signed. That doesn't mean it's a bad strategy, it means the GM was off on his evaluation of who he was bringing in. O'Dwyer didn't even make the final roster and yet his name is out there time after time as an example.

Wolf brought in seasoned players for the OL all the time b/c he understood it's not a sink or swim proposition. If a guy falters, you need to plug that hole and be somewhat confident about it.

He brought in Guy McIntyre, Tootie Roobins, Frank Winters, Doug Widdell....none were world beaters, but capable. I think that's all were asking for. Klemm and especially O'Dwyer proved they weren't. And that's on the GM, not the strategy.

The best example is having Wilkerson there in '96. He saved the Packers bacon when Michaels proved not up to it.

Nowadays all we see is one unproven player taking over for another and hoping for the best. Not sound strategy, IMO. When Witticker shit the bed in '05, they had no one to replace him with and suffered consequences every week.

[Harlan Huckleby]

anybody who replies to this thread thinks they are "knowledgeable".

What a bunch of egomaniac Harry Sydneys. Piss on you.

[retailguy]

anybody who replies to this thread thinks they are "knowledgeable".

What a bunch of egomaniac Harry Sydneys. Piss on you.

So, then, what did your response mean?