Are we cut blocking or what???

[Guiness]

Bugger of a situation. Someone remind me where Jags is now? As far as whether of not we'll go ahead with the current personel, that will be interesting. One of the things scouts look for when drafting linemen is if they have the 'frame' to pack on the extra pounds needed to survive in the NFL...and they may not have been looking for that if they didn't think they needed to put on those pounds in the system they were going to use.

I'm pretty sure Coston is fine in this regard, although I have issues with him in general...

[MJZiggy]

Bugger of a situation. Someone remind me where Jags is now? As far as whether of not we'll go ahead with the current personel, that will be interesting. One of the things scouts look for when drafting linemen is if they have the 'frame' to pack on the extra pounds needed to survive in the NFL...and they may not have been looking for that if they didn't think they needed to put on those pounds in the system they were going to use.

I'm pretty sure Coston is fine in this regard, although I have issues with him in general...

Jags is the new head coach at Boston College.

[Maxie the Taxi]

This is all very disturbing to read and, frankly, doesn't make a lot of sense. If true, it leads me to believe that there was something else at play in Jags abrupt departure. Maybe a disagreement with MM? If true, it puts our drafts of running backs and linemen into question. I don't know if a stud power blocker was available when they drafted Harrell, but if there was why not draft a power offensive lineman instead of Harrell? And why look for a lower tier "one-cut" back if you're leaning away from ZBS? Why not make a stronger effort to draft Lynch or Peterson?

I'm not convinced. MM has made too much of the ZBS. It's hard to believe he's invented some type of hybrid. It will take something in black and white to convince me. Some direct quote from MM or TT.

[retailguy]

Can you scrap your system in the middle of a season? Seems to me we're stuck with it at least in part until they have the opportunity in the offseason to teach the kind of run blocking they want out of the guys...

If these guys don't know how to block in a power gap scheme they should have never been drafted. Almost everyone zone blocks sometimes, and ditto for the rest of the OL schemes.

In this case, we just have to see some evidence that they CAN run block. I don't care, at this point, HOW they run block.... but I still hate the ZBS. I really tried to like it, but I just don't.

[esoxx]

This is all very disturbing to read and, frankly, doesn't make a lot of sense. If true, it leads me to believe that there was something else at play in Jags abrupt departure. Maybe a disagreement with MM?

I don't think it was anything sinister. Jags got the chance to be head coach at a major Divison 1 school and took it. It trumps being an NFL Offensive Line coach. Big promotion.

[RashanGary]

All of our guys are 300 lbs. They're not road graders, but their size should'nt prohibit them from being average run blockers.

The coaching, the size/strength of the lineman and the quality of our backs all contribute. If we had an Adrian Peterson, our run game would look better. If we had Alex Gibbs or even Mike Sherman, our run game would look better. If we had Rivera in his prime and Hutchinson, we'd be better. We have weaknesses in every area that contributes to the run game.


I'm just hopefull that Wynn gets in a better groove after the bye and that they focus of a few things they do well, getting some form of identity. It can get better, but average is looking out of reach for this year.

[KYPack]

This is all very disturbing to read and, frankly, doesn't make a lot of sense. If true, it leads me to believe that there was something else at play in Jags abrupt departure. Maybe a disagreement with MM? If true, it puts our drafts of running backs and linemen into question. I don't know if a stud power blocker was available when they drafted Harrell, but if there was why not draft a power offensive lineman instead of Harrell? And why look for a lower tier "one-cut" back if you're leaning away from ZBS? Why not make a stronger effort to draft Lynch or Peterson?

I'm not convinced. MM has made too much of the ZBS. It's hard to believe he's invented some type of hybrid. It will take something in black and white to convince me. Some direct quote from MM or TT.

Watch tape Max.

We are still zonin' but not the radical scheme used by the Gibbs/ZBS devotees. Our lineman don't turn at a 90 degree angle to the LOS and try to hook people. They are turning at approx a 45 degree angle and shuffling down the line.

The real thing that makes everybody crazy, the backside cut blocks have been pretty much dropped from our repertoire. We don't do it, & I haven't seen it all year. We ain't making that much on the play side, the counters wouldn't be that effective anyhow. Maybe I missed it, but I haven't seen a backside cut block all season. We are running our version of the ZBS, which is far from the Gibbs systems.

Most teams in the league do this, too. KC runs a shuffling form of the zone with very little backside counters. So does Indy and others.

They have adapted what works for their scheme fromn the Gibbs ZBS. The last two zone crazy teams, Denver and ATL ain't doing shit with it anyhow.

[Carolina_Packer]

I thought this was an interesting read about zone blocking.

http://espn.go.com/ncf/columns/davie/1440703.html

[Merlin]

The ZBS can only work if you have the right chemistry of linemen. We have taken two tackles with years of gap and pulling blocking experience and tried to transform them. Clifton and Tauscher aren't small guys and they were never all that fast. Wells performed well in Flanigan's absence in that type of scheme. So Wells is more of a gap pull kind of run blocker. The trouble is we replaced our guards with smaller, quicker guys for the ZBS. That doesn't mean that they can't be good gap pull type guards, it just means they have to unlearn what they have and that remains to be seen.

I personally would like to put the ZBS to bed. It has been detrimental in our selection of running backs and put un-needed stress on the offensive line. Denver is the only team in the NFL to run this type of offense with any sustained success. Atlanta can be discounted because of Vick all those years. If you want to run the ball you need to get the biggest, badest, meanist offensive linemen possible. Then it really doesn't matter who your running back is. Ahman Green proved to be successful no matter the scheme we were running. He was not as successful in the ZBS as Morency was because Morency was used to looking for ZBS holes and not ANY hole. Green cut into whatever hole he found. Most backs can do that and Jackson seems like he would be a better fit for a conventional running game.

[4and12to12and4]

I think the OL is struggling because we have a lot of excellent pass blockers and not enough good run blockers. Colledge certainly wasn't known for his run blocking coming out, and Clifton never was either. Wells is kind of small to hold the point, and the right guard has been a revolving door. Tauscher is solid at everything.

I suspect they'll improve. I also suspect they fatten the boys up this off-season.

Good post. Our tackles are great pass protectors, but their age is starting to show in that area as well, and these young quick ends are harder for them to push around in the run game. Our interior lineman are small, and this has created the mess we have everytime we see a running back trying to figure out where the hell to go. I do believe if we continue to gradually change back to the traditional scheme these smaller, young guns CAN adjust and do well because they are very aggressive and athletic and know how to use leverage very well. I'm sick of watching them diving at peoples feet, that's not their strong suit. They need to get on their guy and use their agility and lower body strength and aggressive nature to get their guy to go where they want them to. I think they are capable, we just need to get a scheme in place and stick with it, and keep a back in there for more than two consecutive games, and we will be fine. I'm glad we are having this problem as we are leading the NFC in wins, because if we get it together and Jackson can get healthy and finish the season with at least 6 or 7 games under his belt, we will be hard to beat in the playoffs, because in the meantime, our passing game is really benefitting from this, as Brett is learning these young guys and that will ultimately help us in crunch time in postseason.

Ruvell needs to get more opportunities. He is a dynamic receiver, will fight for the ball, and I think could emerge as our number one receiver if given the chance. He has the size, speed, hands, athleticism, and tenacity to be a probowl receiver. We need to get him more touches. I like him better than Jennings. He should be our #2 with JJ playing the slot, and also give Koren a chance to prove himself and see how good he can be. We could end up having as good a receiving core as anyone in the league.

[Carolina_Packer]

As far as Mr. Martin goes, I like him too, but are you saying potentially a number 1 receiver? As far as being a number 2 right now, I'm not sure. If his talent were that undeniable, why is he still down on the depth chart? Is the coaching staff missing the boat?

[Guiness]

Good post. Our tackles are great pass protectors, but their age is starting to show in that area as well, and these young quick ends are harder for them to push around in the run game. Our interior lineman are small, and this has created the mess we have everytime we see a running back trying to figure out where the hell to go. I do believe if we continue to gradually change back to the traditional scheme these smaller, young guns CAN adjust and do well because they are very aggressive and athletic and know how to use leverage very well. I'm sick of watching them diving at peoples feet, that's not their strong suit. They need to get on their guy and use their agility and lower body strength and aggressive nature to get their guy to go where they want them to. I think they are capable, we just need to get a scheme in place and stick with it, and keep a back in there for more than two consecutive games, and we will be fine. I'm glad we are having this problem as we are leading the NFC in wins, because if we get it together and Jackson can get healthy and finish the season with at least 6 or 7 games under his belt, we will be hard to beat in the playoffs, because in the meantime, our passing game is really benefitting from this, as Brett is learning these young guys and that will ultimately help us in crunch time in postseason.

Ruvell needs to get more opportunities. He is a dynamic receiver, will fight for the ball, and I think could emerge as our number one receiver if given the chance. He has the size, speed, hands, athleticism, and tenacity to be a probowl receiver. We need to get him more touches. I like him better than Jennings. He should be our #2 with JJ playing the slot, and also give Koren a chance to prove himself and see how good he can be. We could end up having as good a receiving core as anyone in the league.

Re: being sick of them diving at people's feet
When did you see that? That was the point of my original post: I've been watching to see them dive at people's feet, and they aren't doing, and never have, as far as I can tell.

[Patler]

Colledge - 6'4" 305
Wells - 6'2" 295
Spitz - 6'3" 300
Coston - 6'3" 313
Barbre - 6'4" 300
Moll - 6'5" 304

Wahle - 6'6" 304
Flanagan - 6'5" 297
Rivera - 6'4" 307

TT hasn't drafted small linemen, he has tried to draft athletic lineman. Guys with good feet who can move. It shouldn't matter what scheme they are asked to play.

Wahle and Rivera were not good linemen in their second seasons, and Flanagan was on IR. Rivera was not yet a starter. Wahle was in his second season, but lost his starting job in his third season.

At least some of the 6 above should work out long term.

[KYPack]

Colledge - 6'4" 305
Wells - 6'2" 295
Spitz - 6'3" 300
Coston - 6'3" 313
Barbre - 6'4" 300
Moll - 6'5" 304

Wahle - 6'6" 304
Flanagan - 6'5" 297
Rivera - 6'4" 307

TT hasn't drafted small linemen, he has tried to draft athletic lineman. Guys with good feet who can move. It shouldn't matter what scheme they are asked to play.

Wahle and Rivera were not good linemen in their second seasons, and Flanagan was on IR. Rivera was not yet a starter. Wahle was in his second season, but lost his starting job in his third season.

At least some of the 6 above should work out long term.

Wahle and Rivera were terrible their first few years. Wahle was lost at LT and Rivera was one of th worst LG's I've ever seen. Then, they matured and got bigger, stronger, switched positions, etc and became the sainted characters they are now.

I think Colledge will be a good one and btw Moll & Spitz, we'll get another good one. If Barbre can develop, we will have a great line in a few seasons.

It takes time.

[Bretsky]

As far as Mr. Martin goes, I like him too, but are you saying potentially a number 1 receiver? As far as being a number 2 right now, I'm not sure. If his talent were that undeniable, why is he still down on the depth chart? Is the coaching staff missing the boat?

I like Ruvell, but talent wise IMO he's nothing more than a 4/5 WR. He doesn't get open when facing a quality CB in man to man. He had plenty of opportunities in game one with Jennings out; I was at that game and witnessed Phily on our WR's all day. The CB's were like white on rice on him. He has the height, but his route running and speed are just not good enough to be a starter