Defensive line ranks among NFL's best

[RashanGary]

It will be an interesting season-end and off season with Williams and the DL. The problem I see is they already have four sizable contracts on the DL, with Kampman, Jenkins, Harrell and Pickett. Teams always talk about not committing too many large contracts in one area of the team, so they may not feel it is appropriate to make a big offer to Williams. On the other hand, none of the contracts are huge deals, and Kampman, Jenkins and Pickett might all be considered bargains.

I think this is KGB's last year, but you never know. He keeps playing well. He might have one more left in him.

Kamp, Jenkins and Pickett combined make what Freeney makes per year.

They have more than enough cap space for it. I have a feel for what I think Ted Thompson does with his decisions. I think he'll think about what kind of impact Williams signing would have on the team. He would then weigh it against what it costs to sign him. I think the reward outweighs the risk if the price is where we all think it is and he'll sign Williams some time over the next couple weeks.

The defense wouldn't be very good without the good DL. You hate to let Williams go, have one injury and then a strength goes from something that impacts the game in the 4th quarter to an average DL that wears out in the 4th. For 4 mil per year in this cap age, it's a drop in the hat to sign Williams and the impact is big. It seems like a no brainer to me if you're willing to pay 3 DT's starter money. Jolly is getting peanuts and by the time Jolly gets paid, Pickett will be leaving.

[Bretsky]

I think it's far from a must that Williams needs to be resigned. That would assume that Harrell can't become a solid player. If Harrell (who we've gotten little from to this point) were to become a player, he'd be able to step in for the UFA Williams and the DL wouldn't miss a beat. Or if a guy like Daniel Muir becomes a player.

Hence the reason I thought we drafted him in the first place. No credibility to that view at all, but that was my first impression.

It's not a bad thing to have a dominant DL; we have 12,000,000 of cap space sitting there right now and not a ton of quality to extend.

[Bretsky]

I think it's far from a must that Williams needs to be resigned. That would assume that Harrell can't become a solid player. If Harrell (who we've gotten little from to this point) were to become a player, he'd be able to step in for the UFA Williams and the DL wouldn't miss a beat. Or if a guy like Daniel Muir becomes a player.

Harrell is more of a potential replacement for Cole or Pickett than he is for Williams. Harrell will not give the team what Williams does. I doubt he will provide the pass rush pressure that Williams does, and there has been no indication that he can play DE like Williams can.

[Bretsky]

Re: Defensive line ranks among NFL's best

Wow - our scouts had Kampman as the second best DL in that draft? I assume Peppers was first. Surprising they liked Kampman that much.

This is a little more evidence that Mike Sherman took guys he needed over guys the scouts liked. If they had Kampman as the 2nd best lineman (physically) and they loved his determination, then he should have gone long before round 5. We lucked out with Kampman, probably because none of Shermans pets were remaining and he had to just take the guy the scouts wanted all along. Makes you wonder how many times it didn't pan out.

Sherman coming out after the Carroll pick and saying "This is the highest rated CB available" instead of "This is the best player on our board" made me realize that he had no intention of grabbing the best players, only the ones who filled short term needs. I believe that Shermans god awfull aproach (except for in the late rounds where he seems to have just went with his scouts opinions) is what ruined this team. Thankfully, Harlan fired him and we're back on track.

Another thing I like about the Thompson regime is that they give credit to the scouts now. McGinn had to get this from somewhere in the organization, and it would never have gotten to McGinn if Thompson didn't want it too. Thompson came up the hard way to where he is. He seems to want to give all of his guys the chance to have their name known. Thompson leans on his scouts, and takes players that him (and his guys) think are the best. It's really paying off.

I hate to drag Sherman into everything, but man O man was he a bad GM. As a fan, I am soooooo thankfull that he is gone.

Once again Sherman did NOT say he was the second best DL in the draft. IMO you are reaching here using Kampman as an example. He was thought to be too small by some for the NFL and was drafted about where he was projected to be drafted.

Give Sherman loads of credit for bringing in guys like Kampman, Jenkins, Barnett, Wells..etc

[Patler]

It will be an interesting season-end and off season with Williams and the DL. The problem I see is they already have four sizable contracts on the DL, with Kampman, Jenkins, Harrell and Pickett. Teams always talk about not committing too many large contracts in one area of the team, so they may not feel it is appropriate to make a big offer to Williams. On the other hand, none of the contracts are huge deals, and Kampman, Jenkins and Pickett might all be considered bargains.

I think this is KGB's last year, but you never know. He keeps playing well. He might have one more left in him.

Kamp, Jenkins and Pickett combined make what Freeney makes per year.

They have more than enough cap space for it. I have a feel for what I think Ted Thompson does with his decisions. I think he'll think about what kind of impact Williams signing would have on the team. He would then weigh it against what it costs to sign him. I think the reward outweighs the risk if the price is where we all think it is and he'll sign Williams some time over the next couple weeks.

The defense wouldn't be very good without the good DL. You hate to let Williams go, have one injury and then a strength goes from something that impacts the game in the 4th quarter to an average DL that wears out in the 4th. For 4 mil per year in this cap age, it's a drop in the hat to sign Williams and the impact is big. It seems like a no brainer to me if you're willing to pay 3 DT's starter money. Jolly is getting peanuts and by the time Jolly gets paid, Pickett will be leaving.

Gee, I forgot all about KGB! That makes it even more unlikely that they will make a big offer to Williams without letting one of those contracts go. Obviously, the most likely would be KGB.

I wonder if we might see KGB released and an attempt at re-signing him to a lower contract. His salary for next year is to be over $6 million, and $7.3 million in 2009. He seems to have adapted well to his new role, but that is a lot of money to pay him for it.

[Bretsky]

It will be an interesting season-end and off season with Williams and the DL. The problem I see is they already have four sizable contracts on the DL, with Kampman, Jenkins, Harrell and Pickett. Teams always talk about not committing too many large contracts in one area of the team, so they may not feel it is appropriate to make a big offer to Williams. On the other hand, none of the contracts are huge deals, and Kampman, Jenkins and Pickett might all be considered bargains.

I think this is KGB's last year, but you never know. He keeps playing well. He might have one more left in him.

Kamp, Jenkins and Pickett combined make what Freeney makes per year.

They have more than enough cap space for it. I have a feel for what I think Ted Thompson does with his decisions. I think he'll think about what kind of impact Williams signing would have on the team. He would then weigh it against what it costs to sign him. I think the reward outweighs the risk if the price is where we all think it is and he'll sign Williams some time over the next couple weeks.

The defense wouldn't be very good without the good DL. You hate to let Williams go, have one injury and then a strength goes from something that impacts the game in the 4th quarter to an average DL that wears out in the 4th. For 4 mil per year in this cap age, it's a drop in the hat to sign Williams and the impact is big. It seems like a no brainer to me if you're willing to pay 3 DT's starter money. Jolly is getting peanuts and by the time Jolly gets paid, Pickett will be leaving.

Gee, I forgot all about KGB! That makes it even more unlikely that they will make a big offer to Williams without letting one of those contracts go. Obviously, the most likely would be KGB.

I wonder if we might see KGB released and an attempt at re-signing him to a lower contract. His salary for next year is to be over $6 million, and $7.3 million in 2009. He seems to have adapted well to his new role, but that is a lot of money to pay him for it.

The ideal scenario is to have KGB modify his contract; but players don't take lightly to pay cuts, and my gut tells me if TT does this he'll offer KGB a contract that will be lower than what he'd get in unrestricted FA. So then it's up to KGB.

I do want them to keep Williams though.

[Patler]

Re: Defensive line ranks among NFL's best

Give Sherman loads of credit for bringing in guys like Kampman, Jenkins, Barnett, Wells..etc

What I think is peculiar is that when Sherman actively tried to improve the DL, he failed. When he just "went with the flow" in his efforts, he succeeded.

Active attempts - sign Joe Johnson as an UFA, trade a draft pick for Rod Walker, trade up for Kenny Peterson, trade up for James Lee, trade up for Donnell Washington.

Go with the flow - Use his own pick for Kampman, let Jenkins go undrafted and sign him as an undrafted free agent, pick up Colin Cole after being released by others.

The only "active" attempt that succeeded was trading up for Williams.

It seems when he targeted guys, it didn't work out. When he just looked at what was available to him at the time, he had more success.

[Bretsky]

Re: Defensive line ranks among NFL's best

Give Sherman loads of credit for bringing in guys like Kampman, Jenkins, Barnett, Wells..etc

What I think is peculiar is that when Sherman actively tried to improve the DL, he failed. When he just "went with the flow" in his efforts, he succeeded.

Active attempts - sign Joe Johnson as an UFA, trade a draft pick for Rod Walker, trade up for Kenny Peterson, trade up for James Lee, trade up for Donnell Washington.

Go with the flow - Use his own pick for Kampman, let Jenkins go undrafted and sign him as an undrafted free agent, pick up Colin Cole after being released by others.

The only "active" attempt that succeeded was trading up for Williams.

Some are quite successful in the wheeling and dealing; no matter how you look at it there is a gamble there.

Overall Sherman was not successful at all.

The only three moves that clearly worked were

1. trading up to get Javon Walker (he picked up Aaron Kampmen with the extra pick

2. Trading a Second Round Draft Pick for Al Harris

3. Trading up for Corey Williams

[Patler]

Re: Defensive line ranks among NFL's best

Some are quite successful in the wheeling and dealing; no matter how you look at it there is a gamble there.

Overall Sherman was not successful at all.

The only three moves that clearly worked were

1. trading up to get Javon Walker (he picked up Aaron Kampmen with the extra pick

2. Trading a Second Round Draft Pick for Al Harris

3. Trading up for Corey Williams

Yup, thats pretty much it; and the failed wheeling and dealing moves included Hunter Hillenmeyer, Chris Johnson, Joey Thomas (which actually was a rare trade down), and BJ Sander in addition to the DL picks I mentioned earlier. I would argue that his trade of two fourth round picks for one season of Terry Glenn was a blunder overall, too.

[Partial]

Kampman - 5th round
KGB - 5th round
Jenkins - Undrafted
Jolly - 6th round
Montgomery - 7th round
Williams - 6th round
Pickett - 1st round
Harrell - 1st round

Interesting; most of our linemen were late picks.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I think it's far from a must that Williams needs to be resigned. That would assume that Harrell can't become a solid player. If Harrell (who we've gotten little from to this point) were to become a player, he'd be able to step in for the UFA Williams and the DL wouldn't miss a beat. Or if a guy like Daniel Muir becomes a player.

Hence the reason I thought we drafted him in the first place. No credibility to that view at all, but that was my first impression.

It's not a bad thing to have a dominant DL; we have 12,000,000 of cap space sitting there right now and not a ton of quality to extend.

We have a bunch of guys that will be FAs in 2 years (and then a shitload in 3 years). It's not a bad thing not to use up every cent of your cap.

[RashanGary]

Re: Defensive line ranks among NFL's best

What I think is peculiar is that when Sherman actively tried to improve the DL, he failed. When he just "went with the flow" in his efforts, he succeeded.

I think any GM who is oppertunistic and takes advantage of things when the come available instead of when he NEEDS it will succeed (assuming he has good talent evaluators).

When you get desperate, you give up more than you should to get what you want and those decisions add up. The NFL is so highly competetive that it's not one move that puts a team over the top. It's many, many good moves compiled over time. One costly move takes away the ability to make a good move down the road. Yesterdays dumb decision (Joe Johnson for example) is todays handcuffs. Every time a desperate move is made, it stands a strong chance of having a negative effect on the team (because a desperate shopper is a stupid shopper IMO). Eventually I believe it becomes harder and harder to climb to the top because a few teams are making great decsiion after great decision, building something special OVER TIME where the bad GM's are trying to do it all in one off season driven by job security, desperation or bad ownership.

It's one thing if you just want to be good. I think it's quite another if you want to be great. My belief is greatness is something that has to be stacked methodically, not forced.

[RashanGary]

We have a bunch of guys that will be FAs in 2 years (and then a shitload in 3 years). It's not a bad thing not to use up every cent of your cap.

Right, are we going to beat the Patriots or Colts this year even with Moss (the only possible offseason move even in hindsight that really would have helped)? The anwer is a resounding NO if you have any football sense.

We're getting to the point where good decision is stacking on good decision. Do we want to hand cuff our option to continue to make the good decisions that put us over the top by getting desperate? I say NO WAY. Keep doing it the right way and greatness will come. We're just getting started in what could be a very big thing here in GB. It will never be great with one or two more players. It's going to take staying together and continuing to build more good peices. Blowing the wad now would insure that we have to start over before it comes together. No thanks.