Zone Blocking/Pass Protection

[Noodle]

ND, Yeah, I didn't get the "pass pro is easy" bit. Again, I never played at the college level, but from guys who did, they seemed to think drive blocking was easier/more fun than getting beat on in pass pro. Especially as the athelticism of the DL guys goes up, pass pro can be a real bitch. So what you might have found easy to do in HS becomes a whole different game as you move on up the ranks.

And KY, Colledge can cowboy up all he wants, but his 290 pound frame will not be able to anchor and keep some of those 320 lb monster DTs from collapsing the pocket. Mass time acceleration equals force, and there's not much you can do about it. With good leverage and technique he can buy the QB some time, but I don't expect a lot of classic pockets with this O-line and with this system.

Finally, Iron Mike, if Clifton were to snap a Sapp, that wouldn't be dirty, that would be justice.

[KYPack]

And KY, Colledge can cowboy up all he wants, but his 290 pound frame will not be able to anchor and keep some of those 320 lb monster DTs from collapsing the pocket. Mass time acceleration equals force, and there's not much you can do about it. With good leverage and technique he can buy the QB some time, but I don't expect a lot of classic pockets with this O-line and with this system.

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Yeah, Noodle, I'm worried, too.

I'm HOPING we get the job done, not saying it will happen.

I'm a Packer fan who spent last season watching a team with, essentially, no guards. Neither Klemm or Whitticker could execute their assignments at the NFL level.

At least these kids will have a chance of getting the job done. Last years guards were flopping around on the field like fish on a deck.

All 3 of the core OLineman are a little light in the butt, this is true. We have to hope that they are great athletes and technicians and are able to counter the huge interior lineman they will face.

if they can't? We don't have a real good plan B, that I can see.

[Patler]

IF MM is true to his word, and gets back to the basic WC offense passing philosophy, there will be very few passes on 5 and 7 step drops. Most passes will be on three step drops. There will be a lot of 6 and 7 yard tosses, very few over 15 yards. It will be up to the receivers to make yardage after the reception. It will force linebackers to honor their pass coverage responsibilities instead of blitzing. A lot of this will negate any deficiencies in pass blocking abilities of the smaller O-line.

[Deputy Nutz]

Up until you said pass protection is the easiest block to learn, i believed in everything you said. I think the Proper Pass Pro, the kick slide, is the most difficult pass protection, which all NFL teams use, and i'd say 99.9% of all colleges use today. It's extremely difficult, especially if you come from a smaller school who doesn't do it. It took me more time to learn how to pass pro at the next level than anything else. Then you add a person in there you actually ahve to block, not easy at all.

Well I gotta disagree with ya a little bit. I played guard in high school and college and it was a bit easier to battle inside then out in space. I also weighed 220 pounds in college and consistently tried to block guys 50 to 70 heavier than me. It was easier to lock on(legally hold) to those guys and ride them down the line of scrimmage or hold my ground at the line of scrimmage in pass pro, rather than try to drive block them off the line with our run blocking scheme. I begged our offensive coordinator in college to switch to some zone concepts in the running game, and finally half way through my Sophomore year he tried them out. They worked wonderfully.

Pass blocking is not simple, I over spoke a little bit, but it is the standard for offensive lineman, if you can't protect your QB you have little value to the team, other than playing on the goal line. Blitz pick up, Twists and over/unders aren't always the easiest things to pick up, and trust me it drove me nuts when I would switch the line call to pick up a twist and the tackle would totally blow the assignment.

You have to have good footwork to be successful offensive lineman, but if you don't have a brain in your head, and you refuse to look at film, or run through senarios in your mind then forget it. You can put the most athletic guy in the world and put him on the offensive line, and he would get blown away 99% of the time if he just went out their and tried to play on the offensive line. I can't stress technique and awarness enough when I am coaching the offensive line in high school. I really don't care how strong an offensive lineman is, it's his savy thats important.

[Deputy Nutz]

ND, Yeah, I didn't get the "pass pro is easy" bit. Again, I never played at the college level, but from guys who did, they seemed to think drive blocking was easier/more fun than getting beat on in pass pro. Especially as the athelticism of the DL guys goes up, pass pro can be a real bitch. So what you might have found easy to do in HS becomes a whole different game as you move on up the ranks.

Run blocking is fun, but it is not easier. If run blocking was so easy teams wouldn't have needed to throw the football. If you are a good running football team you average over 4.0 yards a carry. You have to usually block at least 7 guys for the run to be successful, in pass blocking you might have to block 7 or 8 guys if a team is blitzing, but usually it is 4 to 5, even as low as 3. You have to prepare for the blitz, but in most cases there are more double teams and help from running backs in pass protection than in run blocking. Think of it this way, if you give up 2 sacks per 30 passes your an average pass blocking line. How many runs for no gain or a loss to think happens in 30 rushing attempts? Probably more than two.

[ND72]

at the guard position, it can be easy to pass pro cause you basically are lined up with the fatter slower guy across from you. I played tackle, and it was never easy. it became easy as i got better, but was never easy.

Run blocking I always found to be easy to me. even when i had to learn the zone blocking, it was simple. I rarely met a person i played with that didn't say Pass blocking was hard, and run blocking was easy. the concept of the zone blockign is to make it easy on the lineman. they don't have to worry about specific guys, they worry about an area. a DT can do all he wants vs. a zone, it doesn' tmatter cause for hte most part the zone is designed for anythign that DL guy can do.

i donno where you went to college, but I know at my D-2 level, that threw the ball a lot, pass blocking was not easy. we did 1-on-1 man pass pro, kick slide, and it was always a challenge. And I know from working with the coaches at Wisconsin for a clinic they battle day in and day out getting guys to pass pro successfully.

[KYPack]

IF MM is true to his word, and gets back to the basic WC offense passing philosophy, there will be very few passes on 5 and 7 step drops. Most passes will be on three step drops. There will be a lot of 6 and 7 yard tosses, very few over 15 yards. It will be up to the receivers to make yardage after the reception. It will force linebackers to honor their pass coverage responsibilities instead of blitzing. A lot of this will negate any deficiencies in pass blocking abilities of the smaller O-line.

Well this is cool. A little disagreement makes for good threads.

As far as your post about 3 step drops, ah, no.

A 3 step drop is a critical piece of any offense. A lot of your blitz control routes are 3 step drops. With the blitz crzazy defenses of the past few years, teams add quicks to all parts of their passing offense. The Pack even run those zero routes when the wide reciever catches a quick pass and tries to make what he can on his own speed and moves. Those are basically one step drops.

We will have a complete compliment of quick and blitz control routes to help Brett and our young lineman.

But this statement "there will be very few passes on 5 and 7 step drops.". ain't gonna happen. You can mix in the quick stuff, but you can't live off it. The bulk of a passing offense requires at least a 5 step drop. If you go with all quick stuff, the defenses will quickly counter it and your O will grind to a halt.

It'd be a nice idea to go to a majority of 3 step, but it can't happen.

[Patler]

KYPack, the key is whether MM intends to return to the original conncept of the WC offense, as he said he will. The longer drops and longer routes under Sherman are not part of the original WC offense passing game.

The real WC offense has virtually no long passes. In its early years it was said the QB doesn't even have to be able to throw a 20 yard pass. In the early Holmgren years it was rare that a play was designed with a 7 step drop, and only a handful of 5 step drops were used in a game. The bread and butter was the 3 step drop, usually to Sterling Sharpe so he could run over a hapless cornerback!

[Deputy Nutz]

I don't know why it matters where I went to college, but I am not arguing that pass protection shouldn't be worked on. I already retracted my previous statement about it being easy. I made several statements regarding why I thought it was easier than run blocking though. All you state was that it was easier for you to run block than pass block. Great for you and your division 2 team. Awesome that you had the opportunity to work with the Badgers and their offensive line, and I sure hope that a football team at any level works on pass protection everyday I knew that my lowly division 3 team did everyday. I know when I was a coach at the high school level, I made sure that my offensive line worked on it everyday.

This conversation is getting a bit overblown.

[Deputy Nutz]

KYPack, the key is whether MM intends to return to the original conncept of the WC offense, as he said he will. The longer drops and longer routes under Sherman are not part of the original WC offense passing game.

The real WC offense has virtually no long passes. In its early years it was said the QB doesn't even have to be able to throw a 20 yard pass. In the early Holmgren years it was rare that a play was designed with a 7 step drop, and only a handful of 5 step drops were used in a game. The bread and butter was the 3 step drop, usually to Sterling Sharpe so he could run over a hapless cornerback!

In the original west coast offense, the QB didn't need a very strong arm, look at Joe Montana. He has a jelly arm, but it was good enough to make all the throws. Even Steve Young had an average arm. Very few west coast qbs had the arm strength of Brett Favre, infact I don't think any QB had the arm strength of Brett Favre.

I don't know where the demand for big receivers came from either. Rice and Taylor weren't very big. Freeman, and Brooks didn't have great size. Sharpe Owens were the biggest of the productive recievers in the West Coast offense that I am fimilar with, but those two would have been productive in any system. I guess big receivers were wanted to break tackles after the catch, but without the quickness and the abilty to accelerate after catching the ball, defenses with speed will swarm the ball carrier after a minimal gain. I think Thompson realizes this and instead of going with bigger receivers in the draft that I think McCarthy likes he went with sure handed route runners.

[Fritz]

I recall a lot more three step drops in Favre's early years, and it was frustrating for defenses who would often blitz, but to no avail. The guy has gotten rid of the ball before you get two steps past the line of scrimmage.

One problem - and why Shermy ended up stretching the field so much later on - is that corners and safeties creep up more and more if you only run short routes. Remember the Rams' playoff game when the Ram corners were all over the Packer receivers like Paris Hilton on Matt Leinart?

[KYPack]

KYPack, the key is whether MM intends to return to the original conncept of the WC offense, as he said he will. The longer drops and longer routes under Sherman are not part of the original WC offense passing game.

The real WC offense has virtually no long passes. In its early years it was said the QB doesn't even have to be able to throw a 20 yard pass. In the early Holmgren years it was rare that a play was designed with a 7 step drop, and only a handful of 5 step drops were used in a game. The bread and butter was the 3 step drop, usually to Sterling Sharpe so he could run over a hapless cornerback!

Ah....no.

Hell no.

You a mis-remembering. I loved them quicks to Sterling, even when I hated Sterling, but..........

The WCO has 3 step quicks in it, but it's not the staple of the offense. Just to test this, I looked at my "Favre Forever" tape. It's highlights from All Brett's games from 92 - '04. (Ican't bring myself to put '05 on it.) I looked at '92 & '93.

You are basically 100 % wrong.

Out of 50 passes from that era, 4 were 3 step drops. 3 to Sterling, 1 to Jackie Harris. the other 46 were 5 AND 7 step drops.

5 & 7's aren't rare, they are the staple of a pass offense.

There are only a few plays you can run from a 3 step.

A quick circle to the back, 3 step pattern, right. No, it's a 5 step. If your line is clicking 90 % of your drops are 5&7 steps.

This whole deal started because you've suggested we will go go to 3 step passes to help our young line. The frequency may go up a little, but this team will still use a 5 or 7 step drop in tha vast majority of it's pass plays

[Merlin]

KYPack, the key is whether MM intends to return to the original conncept of the WC offense, as he said he will. The longer drops and longer routes under Sherman are not part of the original WC offense passing game.

The real WC offense has virtually no long passes. In its early years it was said the QB doesn't even have to be able to throw a 20 yard pass. In the early Holmgren years it was rare that a play was designed with a 7 step drop, and only a handful of 5 step drops were used in a game. The bread and butter was the 3 step drop, usually to Sterling Sharpe so he could run over a hapless cornerback!

Ah....no.

Hell no.

You a mis-remembering. I loved them quicks to Sterling, even when I hated Sterling, but..........

The WCO has 3 step quicks in it, but it's not the staple of the offense. Just to test this, I looked at my "Favre Forever" tape. It's highlights from All Brett's games from 92 - '04. (Ican't bring myself to put '05 on it.) I looked at '92 & '93.

You are basically 100 % wrong.

Out of 50 passes from that era, 4 were 3 step drops. 3 to Sterling, 1 to Jackie Harris. the other 46 were 5 AND 7 step drops.

5 & 7's aren't rare, they are the staple of a pass offense.

There are only a few plays you can run from a 3 step.

A quick circle to the back, 3 step pattern, right. No, it's a 5 step. If your line is clicking 90 % of your drops are 5&7 steps.

This whole deal started because you've suggested we will go go to 3 step passes to help our young line. The frequency may go up a little, but this team will still use a 5 or 7 step drop in tha vast majority of it's pass plays

A true WCO relies on a combination of both. The 5-7 step drops create the allure of a deep throw, only to come under neath or for a screen pass. This causes problems for the defense because you can set up the same short passes (except the RB screen) from a 3 step drop. Traditionally the WCO relies on short-high percentage passes. It also calls for receivers that can slant to the middle and take a hit. The idea behind it is to spread the field, whether the corners come up or not. What you need to do is compare the passing lanes and depth from the Holmgren era to the Sherman era. There you will find the difference. Sherman riled on the run to open up the passing game (down field). Holgren relied on the pass to open up the running game. Once the field is streched, even if the corners come up, you can pound the run up the middle. No more of this U-72 off tackle wide crap!

[Fritz]

"Just to test this, I looked at my "Favre Forever" tape. It's highlights from All Brett's games from 92 - '04."

Is it possible that since it's highlights the tape would only show the flashier plays - difficult throws, touchdown throws, stuff like that? If so, then it's possible there are a lot more three step drops than you think. My guess is that not many three-step-drops-and-a-five-yard-gain plays are going to make a highlight tape.

[KYPack]

"Just to test this, I looked at my "Favre Forever" tape. It's highlights from All Brett's games from 92 - '04."

Is it possible that since it's highlights the tape would only show the flashier plays - difficult throws, touchdown throws, stuff like that? If so, then it's possible there are a lot more three step drops than you think. My guess is that not many three-step-drops-and-a-five-yard-gain plays are going to make a highlight tape.

Yeah Fritz. I thought the same thing myself. & I'm sure the highlights would skew the frequecy of certain plays, sets, formations, etc,

But from the comments, I'm also sure that for some reason, people think there are a helluva lot nmore quicks than there actually were.

From my own memory, I knew they ran that play some, but not every other series or anything like that

Maybe we've got some coach wanna be that could crack some game film for us to get the definative answer.

For now, my research proved my gut feel, so I'm happily dropping out of the argument.

There was that guy on JSO that wanted 90 - 05 tape on ALL the games. Now that's a freak. Let him do it.