Atari Bigby. . . .

[SkinBasket]

You can get all worked up about how awesome he is by ignoring the multitude of times when he's been completely out of position, confused, slow to respond, and how many times he's been burned for 6 points if you want. Have at it. While you're at it, forget all those yards given away by idiotic penalties that have hurt the team too. As for me, I'm hoping we can upgrade to an at least average safety this off-season that allows us to refocus on hiding our 2nd worst pass defender, Poppinga, in coverage.

I don't think he's been burned for 6 nearly as many times as you think he has. The Packers give up 17 points per game (6th lowest in the NFL). I've watched every game multiple times and while he has been beaten quite a few times on deep sail routes that end up out of bounds, he hasn't gotten burned for 6 like you seem to think he has.

You have been right in the past on guys like Dendy and Herron (I never liked him either) but you are not right on Bigby. Bigby is a young, gifted saftey who brings more positive impact in his first year starting than most safeties do in two years.

Give me a number then on how many he's responsible for and maybe I'll have something to consider.

But giving up TDs isn't the real problem, it's a syptom of what I think his real problem is. I watch most of the games multiple times too, and guess what? He doesn't get any better the second or third time you watch him misread a play. I see a guy who still doesn't understand where he needs to be until it's time for him to be there, by which time it's too late and he's trying to play catch-up. He is not fast enough to be that type of player. I haven't seen enough progress over these 14 games to believe he'll ever be significantly better than he is now, and what he is now is easily replaceable by a more well rounded S.

[b bulldog]

Doubt if he ever becomes anything more than a NFL starter

[RashanGary]

SB,

You typically don't talk shit about a player unless he really sucks or at least it's played out that way. I don't see it, but maybe you see something I'm missing.

I see a guy who's this close to being good and this close is pretty close.

[Iron Mike]

Hell, Chris Berman already gave him a nickname.....

[Patler]

You referred to him as a restricted free agent. He's not. He's a second year guy, and "restricted free agents" must have three years of service. Regardless of whether it's referred to in the CBA, guys like Bigby are commonly referred to as "exclusive rights free agents."

Whether the term is "release" or "withdraws tender" the point is the same. He can't shop his services around the league, nor can other teams bid for his services. In other words, he's just like a draft pick, if he doesn't sign with the Packers, he can't play, until such time as the team "withdraws" their tender. That better?

Edit: And here's the reference to "Exclusive Rights Free Agent" from the NFL Players Association website. Hopefully, that's authoritative enough for you...

http://nflpa.org/CBA/free_agency_System_explained.aspx[b]

Exclusive Rights Free Agents – A player whose contract expires at a time when he has less than three Accrued Seasons in the NFL cannot market his services to other clubs if his old club gives him a minimum salary tender on or before March 1, 2007. If the tender is provided, this player can only re-sign with his old club (unless the tender is later withdrawn).

And here's the definition of "restricted free agent" from the Players Association...

Restricted Free Agent – A player whose contract expires when he has three Accrued Seasons (but less than four) is in this category in a capped year. If his old club provides him with a sufficient “Qualifying Offer” on or before March 1, 2007, it retains the right to either match an offer the player may get from another club or to receive draft choice compensation from the club making the offer. The Qualifying Offer is based on the level of draft choices the old club wants to receive. For Example, the Qualifying Offer to receive a first and third rounder in 2006 was $2,096,600. The Restricted Free Agent only has about a week before the draft (April 28 - 29 in 2007) to generate an offer from another club. If he fails to get an offer, his exclusive rights revert to the old club unless the Qualifying Offer is withdrawn.

Of course he is a restricted free agent. Some might argue that he is the most restricted of free agents. It is simply a different level of restriction, especially as opposed to an unrestricted free agent.

In the long run, the distinction is really between unrestricted free agents and those who can be forced back to their former team. Neither "restricted free agents" nor "exclusive rights free agents" typically go anywhere other than back to their former team, if their former team really wants them back. The only difference is cost. Your exclusive rights free agent can be brought back for minimum salary, whereas the tender to a restricted free agent must be sufficient to require a level of compensation from any other team that dissuades them from making an offer. As it is, few restricted free agents get offers from other teams, even those receiving the lowest tender from their former team, which requires no compensation from another team, just a right of first refusal.

As to the NFLPA site as an authority, I will always defer to the controlling document, in this case the CBA, rather than to any synopsis of it, whether it be from the Management Council, the NFLPA or Wikopedia.

[Patler]

Whether the term is "release" or "withdraws tender" the point is the same. He can't shop his services around the league, nor can other teams bid for his services. In other words, he's just like a draft pick, if he doesn't sign with the Packers, he can't play, until such time as the team "withdraws" their tender.

I'm not sure the analogy is a good one.

The Packers have to tender a qualifying offer to Bigby by March 1, or he is free to negotiate with anyone. If they do not make a qualifying offer to him, he can negotiate with anyone he wants to, and no compensation would be owed to the Packers. A few years back a team lost an otherwise restricted player because they made an improper offer to him. I believe they specified the wrong salary in the offer, as I recall.

I do no believe a drafted player has any rights whatsoever, whether any offer is made to him or not. (Correct me if I am wrong on this. I am not able to verify it at present.)

[SkinBasket]

SB,

You typically don't talk shit about a player unless he really sucks or at least it's played out that way. I don't see it, but maybe you see something I'm missing.

I see a guy who's this close to being good and this close is pretty close.

I just think he would be easily replaceable, despite our problems finding players at this position, and I'm not ready to forgive his multitude of sins because he's not screwed up for a couple of weeks in a row - despite his easy to root for name. A player who lacks open field speed the way he does must learn where he needs to be in coverage to compensate. He just isn't doing that. He's standing still, waiting, and reacting. Too often, it's a step or two or three too late.

You see a guy who's close to being good. I see a guy who's close to being good. Thing is, I think he's as good as he's going to get.

[vince]

Whether the term is "release" or "withdraws tender" the point is the same. He can't shop his services around the league, nor can other teams bid for his services. In other words, he's just like a draft pick, if he doesn't sign with the Packers, he can't play, until such time as the team "withdraws" their tender.

I'm not sure the analogy is a good one.

The Packers have to tender a qualifying offer to Bigby by March 1, or he is free to negotiate with anyone. If they do not make a qualifying offer to him, he can negotiate with anyone he wants to, and no compensation would be owed to the Packers. A few years back a team lost an otherwise restricted player because they made an improper offer to him. I believe they specified the wrong salary in the offer, as I recall.

I do no believe a drafted player has any rights whatsoever, whether any offer is made to him or not. (Correct me if I am wrong on this. I am not able to verify it at present.)

OK Patler. The term restricted free agent has a commonly used definition that is 1) different than you used here, and 2) distinct from the commonly used term "exclusive rights free agent." Obviously, the third kind of free agency is "unrestricted free agent." All three are different from one another.

There's no practical distinction between a drafted player (who is an EFA) and a second year EFA. A drafted player has the right to be paid at least the minimum salary allowed by the CBA. A tender offer in an EFA's case can be an offer to pay the minimum allowable salary in the league. You can't pay anyone less than the minimum regardless, so, assuming you actually want to keep a player, then tendering him is a no-brainer act. Otherwise you would not tender him, thereby releasing your rights to the player. In the case of a draft pick, you also have to pay him the minimum allowable salary or release your rights to him. While the minimum salary differs a little bit, even that is very small relative to the overall team cap number. Any other distinction is academic and irrelevant.

[Carolina_Packer]

SB,

You typically don't talk shit about a player unless he really sucks or at least it's played out that way. I don't see it, but maybe you see something I'm missing.

I see a guy who's this close to being good and this close is pretty close.

I just think he would be easily replaceable, despite our problems finding players at this position, and I'm not ready to forgive his multitude of sins because he's not screwed up for a couple of weeks in a row - despite his easy to root for name. A player who lacks open field speed the way he does must learn where he needs to be in coverage to compensate. He just isn't doing that. He's standing still, waiting, and reacting. Too often, it's a step or two or three too late.

You see a guy who's close to being good. I see a guy who's close to being good. Thing is, I think he's as good as he's going to get.

Hey Skin, you seem to know football. Just wondering, in terms of your last point about him as good as he's going to get, what is it that you see in him that makes you believe he's maxed out his ability? Not challenging, just curious. Assuming we agree that all young defensive backs are going to have a learning curve and some inconsistencies, what do you need to see in a young defensive back to make you think they have greater potential, or have maxed out?

[FritzDontBlitz]

Great quote by Bigby

"I just found out, a lot of guys don't like to get hit. And that's a good way of getting the respect of my teammates."

That's an attitude that I like to have on this team.

I read that a while back (preseason I think). That was my favorite quote by a defense player this year.

Who is he talking about hitting: the opposing team or his temmates? Seems like he's constantly blasting into his own players, or hitting someone late on the sideline. I can live with the shakiness in coverage if he can eliminate the stupid penalties and his knack for taking out his own teammates.

As for the hair: if he's from the Caribbean and he says the hair is a spiritual thing he's likely rastafarian like Bob Marley was. The long hair is a religious principal, and um, so is >>>>

[Deputy Nutz]

Bigby is young, little football experience at the big time level. He was most likely a very good player at Central Florida, but not a special player at the division one level. The Packers front office has seen something in him to keep him around long enough for the coaching staff to also recognize it as well.

The Packers were not loaded at the safety position and Bigby stepped up in camp and claimed the job by mostly being a factor inside the box, blitzing and helping in run support. Something the Packers defensive staff has hardly used in the regular season. They have mostly kept him deep in coverage responsibility, in space where he had not proved himself in the preseason.

Most rookie safeties struggle in coverage in the NFL, defensive coverages are more complicated and require more precision than I believe at Central Florida. Where else Bigby struggles which is not unlike other rookie safeties is reading play action correctly and in a timely fashion. He has bitten on play action most of the season, unhelpful, but hopefully the more he watches film and learns to spots certain presnap reads play action passes shouldn't be as big of a concern in years to come.

I can't predict the future, but at the same time Bigby's play has been better than expected considering his background, I still think it is amazing that he even made the team. The Packers have Bigby, Collins, and Rouse with the ability to be starters for the Packers, right now that doesn't leave me with 100% confidence in that group and I believe it is an area that can hopefully be improved with either development of current players, free agency, and the draft to acquire depth at the position.

The outlook of the safety position is still better now than at the beginning of the year. Bigby is still a better option than Manuel or Underwood, and Rouse has proved in his limited playing time that he has ability to compete in this league, unfortunately Nick Collins is still dragging his feet at his position, and most likely unless the light bulb goes on in 2008 he most likely will never hit that high ceiling that scouts and personel men for the Packers believed he had.

[SkinBasket]

Hey Skin, you seem to know football. Just wondering, in terms of your last point about him as good as he's going to get, what is it that you see in him that makes you believe he's maxed out his ability? Not challenging, just curious. Assuming we agree that all young defensive backs are going to have a learning curve and some inconsistencies, what do you need to see in a young defensive back to make you think they have greater potential, or have maxed out?

All it would take is a few instances - just one or two really - of being pleasantly surprised to find Bigby deeper than the WR on a deep throw instead of a couple of steps behind. Or to see him moving toward his coverage responsibly before he comes wide open so he's there in time to defend the pass or hit the receiver when the ball gets there.

I agree with nutz that he is an improvement over what we've had there for the past few seasons, but I also don't as excited about him as a lot of people here do I guess. A game where he makes positive moves, not just stops himself from making negative ones, would go a long way toward making me believe he's a player that's capable of learning from his experience.

Until then I still have grave uneasiness when I think about a rematch with Dallas and imagine Poppinga on Witten over the middle with Bigby responsible deep.

[Bretsky]

I'd like to see him turn around and show some sense of being able to play the football while the ball is in the air.

Harris is decent at that and Woodsen very good. Sharper and Leroy Butler were very good at that.

That being said, as many have noted he's been alright and is definitely better than what we've had the past few years.

[The Leaper]

I love Al. He's class from head to toe. Damned hard worker. But he was soundly beaten in the end zone Sunday.

He held Holt to 3 catches for 21 yards. The TD was simply a great route run by Holt. Harris was hoping the defense could get to Bulger, and more or less sat on the slant...and Holt made a great break for the corner of the endzone.

Al struggles against WRs that he can't beat up at the line of scrimmage, or who have elite speed to make up for the jam at the LOS. Owens is strong enough to give Harris a fight, and is also bigger and faster than him. Owens owns nearly all CBs in the league...he's a beast.

[The Leaper]

Bigby remains a huge liability in coverage. His INTs this week really weren't the result of any great play on his part...although I'm glad he hung onto the ball both times.

Negatives: He doesn't possess good ball skills when a throw is up for grabs. He doesn't possess a good mind that will comprehend the situation and realize what his primary responsibility is. He takes poor angles...both in coverage and in blitzing.

Positives: He is a big hitter who can force fumbles and make receivers look for him. He generally can find the football quickly on run plays and isn't afraid to stick his nose into the fray.

Honestly, when I see Bigby, I see a slightly less athletic version of Roy Williams. Anyone talking smack about Roy better not be talking up Bigby. They are cut from the same cloth.