The folly of the independent voter

[The Leaper]

yep. no other country in the world has anything as silly as our electoral college. And most countries use run offs.

Many other countries also find their next political leader when the army overthrows the government.

Is that really what you prefer?

To me, the electorate system is kind of dumb...but the larger problem is the fact that we can't count votes correctly to begin with.

[Scott Campbell]

To me, the electorate system is kind of dumb...but the larger problem is the fact that we can't count votes correctly to begin with.

Funny how they struggle with that. Yet they have no problems with the complexities of payroll deductions.

[Freak Out]

I had forgotten that Maryland passed a election law relating to a NPV election..and it looks like New Jersey may follow.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/2008-01-03-nj-electoral_N.htm

[Merlin]

The only reason Bill Clinton won two terms is because of Ross Perot. He effectively split the conservatives. It was a good start to a true "anyone can run" system but HH is right, if you cast a vote in principle for someone that can't win, then you might as well not cast a vote.

I think Hillary is feeling the effects of that right now. Although Bill was considered a "popular" president, he never got anywhere near 50% of the popular vote. Polls say what the person paying for the poll wants them to say.

Media Facts:

All Republicans Bad
All Democrats Good

Democrats are not liberals
All conservative are Republican

Just a sad state of reality.

[Harlan Huckleby]

yep. no other country in the world has anything as silly as our electoral college. And most countries use run offs.

Many other countries also find their next political leader when the army overthrows the government.

Is that really what you prefer?

yes, I'm a big fan of the military coup. break the back of the two-party system once and for all!

To me, the electorate system is kind of dumb...but the larger problem is the fact that we can't count votes correctly to begin with.

I don't really see the big problem. Ballot scanning machines seem to be the ideal hybrid - accurate electronic tabulation plus a paper trail. I think more states are moving that direction.

[Harlan Huckleby]

(There are shortcuts for doing a run-off, namely by having people indicate both their first and second choice right at the original election.)

But in the case of that system wouldn't you have people making their 2nd choice to strategically help their 1st choice. If that happens you have people practically using 2 votes to help 1 candidate.

I think I see what you mean, some people might use their 2nd choice on a obscure candidate rather than on a potential rival of their first choice. Ummm, but then they would also be benefiting candidates that they despise. Don't sweat it, I'm sure most people would simply honestly rate their top 2 candidates.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Had McCain won in 2000, are we at war now? It's not just electing the party line, the candidate makes choices beyond who's who in Washington...

I see what you are saying, maybe a candidate comes along that is so good, you vote for them even though you disagree with many of the positions of their party.

McCain is a good example, he is a maverick republican who frequently crosses party lines.

There's merit to your position, but it's still the smaller share of the argument. Look at the House and Senate, almost ALL of the votes are 95% along party lines. McCain, just like Bush before him, wouldn't be able to do a damn thing without the consent of large percentage of the Republicans in Congress.

[Fosco33]

Re: The folly of the independent voter

When I hear somebody call themselves an independent voter in presidential elections I just shake my head. You may think you are choosing the best person available, but in our stinky political system, you are not.

A presidential election is about electing a party to power. If you help elect a republican, thousands of republicans will pour into Washington to steer the Interior Department, Education, etc. etc. in a direction along republican philisophical lines. And then there's the all important Supreme Court and Federal Court appointments, which will also be chosen largely from a pool of party loyalists.

Grow up, dumb ass. Decide whether you are more philisophically aligned with the Dems or Republicans and pull the appropriate lever. Stop all that thinking. It's not a good system, but it's reality.

I hate our system - I want much bigger changes. Neither party does shit for me. I pay as much in taxes as many people make in wages - and I'll never benefit from this tax. Remember, taxation without representation.

How about taxation without utilization?

And a significant 3rd party vote can have serious repercussions for the election - 'taking' votes from one party (i.e., I may vote for an independent or a Republican - the independent vote would then help the Democrats).

[Cheesehead Craig]

Let's make our own 3rd Party. The Packer Party!

Who's wants to be considered for our rep?

[swede]

I don't really see the big problem. Ballot scanning machines seem to be the ideal hybrid - accurate electronic tabulation plus a paper trail. I think more states are moving that direction.

I agree! And then Florida, after the 2000 debacle, started investing millions of dollars into touch-screen voting. No paper trail, one computer glitch away from a disaster, and if the the Florida oldheads were too feeble to work a punch ballot just wait til you park their walkers in front of an electronic device that says "Quieres continuar en ingles o espanol?"

[The Leaper]

I don't really see the big problem. Ballot scanning machines seem to be the ideal hybrid - accurate electronic tabulation plus a paper trail. I think more states are moving that direction.

True...but why has it taken so long to figure that out, and by wasting millions in taxpayer dollars in the process???

[MJZiggy]

Cuz no one thought of it?

[Freak Out]

I don't really see the big problem. Ballot scanning machines seem to be the ideal hybrid - accurate electronic tabulation plus a paper trail. I think more states are moving that direction.

True...but why has it taken so long to figure that out, and by wasting millions in taxpayer dollars in the process???

We've used the optical scanner/paper ballot up here for years and it's worked well.

[Scott Campbell]

Re: The folly of the independent voter

When I hear somebody call themselves an independent voter in presidential elections I just shake my head. You may think you are choosing the best person available, but in our stinky political system, you are not.

A presidential election is about electing a party to power. If you help elect a republican, thousands of republicans will pour into Washington to steer the Interior Department, Education, etc. etc. in a direction along republican philisophical lines. And then there's the all important Supreme Court and Federal Court appointments, which will also be chosen largely from a pool of party loyalists.

Grow up, dumb ass. Decide whether you are more philisophically aligned with the Dems or Republicans and pull the appropriate lever. Stop all that thinking. It's not a good system, but it's reality.

I hate our system - I want much bigger changes. Neither party does shit for me. I pay as much in taxes as many people make in wages - and I'll never benefit from this tax. Remember, taxation without representation.

How about taxation without utilization?

And a significant 3rd party vote can have serious repercussions for the election - 'taking' votes from one party (i.e., I may vote for an independent or a Republican - the independent vote would then help the Democrats).

Amen brother. And why can't we opt out of Social Security? Why in the world should the government run retiriement plans.

[Freak Out]

Re: The folly of the independent voter

When I hear somebody call themselves an independent voter in presidential elections I just shake my head. You may think you are choosing the best person available, but in our stinky political system, you are not.

A presidential election is about electing a party to power. If you help elect a republican, thousands of republicans will pour into Washington to steer the Interior Department, Education, etc. etc. in a direction along republican philisophical lines. And then there's the all important Supreme Court and Federal Court appointments, which will also be chosen largely from a pool of party loyalists.

Grow up, dumb ass. Decide whether you are more philisophically aligned with the Dems or Republicans and pull the appropriate lever. Stop all that thinking. It's not a good system, but it's reality.

I hate our system - I want much bigger changes. Neither party does shit for me. I pay as much in taxes as many people make in wages - and I'll never benefit from this tax. Remember, taxation without representation.

How about taxation without utilization?

And a significant 3rd party vote can have serious repercussions for the election - 'taking' votes from one party (i.e., I may vote for an independent or a Republican - the independent vote would then help the Democrats).

Amen brother. And why can't we opt out of Social Security? Why in the world should the government run retiriement plans.

I just heard Huckabee call for a National sales tax to replace the income tax. Intriguing idea.
I don't mind Social Security at all....it's a rather small portion of the "taxes" I pay out overall. I pay way more in Federal withholding...I like to call it the "fucked zone". I'm with Fosco...neither of the parties now do much for me anymore.