Iowa Caucus and NH Primary Thread

[Joemailman]

Are you saying he lacks the wisdom and judgment of the people who voted to let Bush take us into Iraq? (Clinton, Dodd, Edwards, Biden).

Well, this is the mantra of the Obama supporters. You must also consider that Britney Spears was initially against the war.

The decision to support Bush initially is not a litmus test of good judgement. The incompetence of the Bush team was not so obvious at the time of that vote. History might have gone another direction.

Claiming that because Obama's war opposition gives him a lock on wisdom is uncritical thinking. And then the next step is even worse: suggesting that since many experienced people were on the wrong side of history in this or any other incident, therefore experience is unimportant.

Well, I certainly did not say that Obama has a lock on wisdom. If I did think that, I'd be working for his campaign. What I did say, or at least inferred, was that experience in Washington does not necessarily lead to wise decision making.

I believe the decision to support Bush on the war absolutely did show bad judgment. In the wake of 9/11, with Bin Laden on the loose, invading a Muslim country led by a guy who kept the Islamic radicals in his country in check was stupid. Now, I realize that the Dems who supported Bush on the war were under intense political pressure, and Obama was not. But perhaps a part of wisdom is knowing that when the issue is war, caving in to political pressure is not wise. I'm not completely sold on Obama. However, I am comforted by the fact that he is smart and can articulate what he is thinking, which alone would be a refreshing change.

Funny thing watching the news last night was noticing how much Obama and Huckabee sounded alike. Both seem to want to break away from the current political climate in Washington.

[Deputy Nutz]

I think a President should have years of experience in a decision making capacity. And a range of life experiences. Many people really do grow, we're wiser at 50 than at 40, we constantly learn.

Obama hasn't done anything with his life yet. He's just learning how things work in the Senate. Honestly, he is greatly underqualified to be president of anything, let alone the U.S.

I would generally agree.

All those who are basically claiming the Democrats have wrapped up the presidency at this point are very wrong. Both likely Dem hopefuls (Obama, Clinton) have some major negatives working against them in a presidential election. For Hillary, it is the sheer number of voters who claim they just won't vote for her regardless. For Obama, it is his inexperience and record as an ultra-liberal...he's been able to escape much criticism to this point as an underdog, but once he is no longer an underdog, he'll have some tough items to answer for.

The GOP knows its shit in terms of elections...getting dumbass Bush two wins shows that they have the ability to take advantage of weak Dem candidates. To me, I see both Hillary and Obama as weak.

On the flip side...no GOP candidate looks all that strong right now either. The race is really a toss up at this point IMO.

I totally disagree with Harlan, his inexperience might actually get more done than a candidate that has spent years in Washington such as Kerry. If you don't know the rules of the game, make up your own. Maybe it is to simple of idea.

I am mostly a conservative with government spending, which means I usually vote republican, but I have lost interest in the ridiculous spending of the Bush administration in foreign affairs mean while our public education system is in the toilet and our economy is based across oceans as well.

Hopefully being ultra liberal might be the kick in the ass this country needs, I don't know maybe I am a bit confused and disillusioned with our federal government.

[Partial]

Or, we need to cut government spending big time and stop blaming the schools and the education system for our childrens short-comings.

Ron Paul would be exactly what this country needs but too many people are afraid of what would happen if they were forced to sink or swim on their own.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Obama is not an "ultra-liberal". Most of his positions are supported by a majority of Americans.

When Obama opposed authorizing the Iraq War, he was not in the government, I'm not sure he was even in the Illinois State legisature yet. So this was an easy thing to do. If he had been in the U.S. Senate at the time, he might very well have done the same thing John Edwards did: authorize Bush to go to war as a way of strengthening the president's hand diplomatically.

For nutz & joe leaper & others who think that Obama's lack of experience will be an asset in shaking things up: WHAT EXACTLY DO YOU EXPECT HE IS GONNA CHANGE, ANYWAY? Do you think he will weaken the PACs and lobbiests? Obama takes lots of money from corporations and PACs. And the guy in the race who has shown some courage & enthusiasm for reform in this area is none other than John McCain - the guy sitting in the Senate for 30 years.

Everybody wants change. OK. Give examples of EXACTLY what Obama wants to change, then tell me how his inexperience in government will help him effect that change.

If you wanted real change, Joe Biden was your man. He has very progressive yet practical ideas, and he comes out with very thoughtful plans to get there. He knows the ins and outs of compromise.

Well, if it's Obama, I will still be excited. I just expect it will take several years for the Boy King to be effective.

[Deputy Nutz]

It is not talking about cutting social funding or cutting this program or that. What it is about is redistributing tax dollars and getting more bang for the buck, which is something our simple federal government has forgotten. Spending is out of control and for every dollar actually spent for its actually purpose 1000s are spent to line pockets. We simply have enough tax dollars to pay for any and all social programs plus a triple trillion dollar war in the middle east and still efficiently cut taxes, but we don't because government waste is to high on the list.

This whole sink or swim philosophy is ridiculous, our education system has drown already and our country is falling by the wayside.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Funny thing watching the news last night was noticing how much Obama and Huckabee sounded alike. Both seem to want to break away from the current political climate in Washington.

ya, an Obama - Huckabee race would be quite something. Now this would be a bucket of ice water in the face of the establishment! I would love to see that, a civil campaign.

[the_idle_threat]

Ronny Paul got 10% of the vote, not bad since his party is black balling him.

Mainly because he's not really a Republican. He's a third party guy who knows he has to wear a Republican mask to get votes.

[MadScientist]

Funny thing watching the news last night was noticing how much Obama and Huckabee sounded alike. Both seem to want to break away from the current political climate in Washington.

ya, an Obama - Huckabee race would be quite something. Now this would be a bucket of ice water in the face of the establishment! I would love to see that, a civil campaign.

It won't be a civil campaign. Even if Obama and Huckabee want it to be, the massive amounts of cash given to the 527's (Swift boaters, etc) will make sure there are as many mud-slinging likes out there as always.

Just don't elect another fun-duh-mentalist creationist unless you want to spend the rest of your life kissing China's butt.

[SkinBasket]

Or, we need to cut government spending big time and stop blaming the schools and the education system for our childrens short-comings.

Christ Partial, have you been to a public school? Lack of funding is not the only problem. Throwing money at people who have no idea how to spend it, or do much else for that matter, won't help the problem.

[Harlan Huckleby]

It won't be a civil campaign. Even if Obama and Huckabee want it to be, the massive amounts of cash given to the 527's (Swift boaters, etc) will make sure there are as many mud-slinging likes out there as always.)

I don't think so, but you make a good point. The mudslinging is done with the tacit approval of the campaigns, in my judgement. Just have to see.

Just don't elect another fun-duh-mentalist creationist unless you want to spend the rest of your life kissing China's butt.

this is a bizarre connection you draw.

[LL2]

CNNMoney has an article on how Huckabee favors the Fair Tax system and wants to get rid of the IRS. Now that is something I support, but doubt will ever happen.

[Harlan Huckleby]

It is not talking about cutting social funding or cutting this program or that. What it is about is redistributing tax dollars and getting more bang for the buck, which is something our simple federal government has forgotten. Spending is out of control and for every dollar actually spent for its actually purpose 1000s are spent to line pockets. We simply have enough tax dollars to pay for any and all social programs plus a triple trillion dollar war in the middle east and still efficiently cut taxes, but we don't because government waste is to high on the list.

This whole sink or swim philosophy is ridiculous, our education system has drown already and our country is falling by the wayside.

Nutz, your only hope is to run for president yourself. Ron Paul is sort of your man. But you want good government too, so scratch him.

Bill Clinton did a pretty damn good job.

[Harlan Huckleby]

CNNMoney has an article on how Huckabee favors the Fair Tax system and wants to get rid of the IRS. Now that is something I support, but doubt will ever happen.

we've been chatting about this. I am open to the possibility. I'd like to see it get a fair hearing in the Congress.

Huckabee is also for expanding arts & music funding for elementary education. I think this is important, will keep kids engaged in school and learning.

[MJZiggy]

I think I kinda like it as long as luxury items are taxed above necesities...

As to arts and music, artwork not only teaches kids about cultures and beauty, but develops fine motor skills. Music develops a sense of time and rhythm.

The schools have finally figured out the repercussions of cutting some of these programs when they cut phys. ed to concentrate on reading and math and ended up with classrooms full of fidgety, fat kids. They're now starting to add phys ed and recess back into the school days.

[The Leaper]

Obama is not an "ultra-liberal". Most of his positions are supported by a majority of Americans.

I beg to differ.

His voting record in Congress is decidely liberal. No one is going to run in a campaign saying "look, I'm a huge lefty"...but that is precisely what Obama is.

However, I don't bother looking at his Congressional record. I look at his Illinois state senate voting record. Here are some damning votes:

He voted AGAINST a law to ban partial-birth abortions. (SB 230, 1997)

He voted AGAINST a law to ban state funding of abortion. (HB 709, 2000)

He voted AGAINST a law to require prisoners to pay court costs for frivolous lawsuits. (SB 381, 1997)

He voted AGAINST a low to give no offer of "good time" for sex offenders. (SB 485, 1999) He was the ONLY vote in the entire state senate against that measure.

He DECLINED TO VOTE on a law to restrict the location of building with "adult" themes relative to elementary or secondary schools. (SB 609, 2001)

He voted AGAINST a law to require school boards to install software on public computers to block explicit material. (HB 1812, 1999)

He repeatedly voted IN FAVOR of extending the power of unions, especially the teacher's union. (HB 3396, 2003 - SB 230, 2003)

He also repeatedly voted IN FAVOR of increasing taxes or reducing tax credits. (SB 1725, 2003 - SB 1733, 2003)

There also is the DISTURBING frequency of his "present" vote while in the state senate. He invoked this sidestep vote 130 times while there...and several times he did so on crucial issues where he refused to stand up and show leadership.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22335739/

Obama's record is very liberal...and shows disturbing signs of a lack of conviction and leadership IMO. This stuff WILL come out eventually as we head into the summer if he is the Democratic nominee, and I think it will hurt Obama a lot.

I just don't see how the views that I have outlined here from Obama's own voting record are in step with the majority of Americans.