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An Inconvenient Truth

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  • #31
    The global warming issue is highly problematic due to a constellation of obfuscating issues, such as how knowledge is acquired, how predictive models are made and verified, how and why scientists conduct research, how scientists remain funded, scientific bias, agendas, and political and social constructs.

    The global warming hypothesis, as it stands, suggests that human generated carbon dioxide emissions are the major source of a current warming trend across the globe. Furthermore, this warming trend is predicted to continue for at least 100 years, resulting in increases of up to 2 degrees F, resulting in the melting of polar cap ice and increases in ocean levels and severe weather. OK. So how do we know this and how certain are we? As a short aside, I will briefly point our that there are two general ways of acquiring ‘true’ information – through personal experience or through the confident belief in the acquisition by another (second-hand knowledge). Thus, for most information, we rely in the credibility of authority figures on a particular subject to determine whether or not we believe a piece of information to be true. For those of us (which means virtually everyone) we have to acquire knowledge about global warming second-hand, even if we read the primary research articles in Science Magazine or Nature (as I have done, BTW) Through scientific authority figures we know that carbon dioxide levels contributed by humans have increased and that some models predict dire future consequences. Essentially, to believe this, you have to believe that the method of the scientists is sound and that their motives and behavior are ethical. In other words, you must have faith, either in the scientific method in general or in particular scientists with credibility acquired by consistent accurate findings.

    But what about these models the scientists create? How can we be CERTAIN that the future will bring what they claim? How accurate are the models? How can we know that conditions won’t be altered due to changes in technology or behavior by the worlds peoples? The ability to predict the future is confounded by our inability to anticipate such major changes. Karl Popper referred to future predictions of this type as ‘the poverty of historicism.’ To find a more accessible pop culture reference, you could look at Asimov’s “Foundation” science fiction series. In this series, future scientists called ‘psychohistorians’ used mathematics to describe the behavior of large human populations. They used this mathematics to model human behavior, and thereby predict with great accuracy human future history. The wrench in the works was that they could not predict the effects of mutation or as Popper would say, they could not predict the unpredictable changes that might come at any time.

    So we are left with models, that if run without any perturbation whatever, predict a warmer planet, rising seas, and bad weather. But are these models any good? In the biological sciences, scientists have been able to dissect the machinery that allows cells and microscopic free-living animals to move. Video microscopy, together with biochemical analysis of the ‘skeleton’ of cells has helped scientists understand exactly how these cells can crawl. Using this information, scientist can model the movement using computer programs and the movement matches the observed at high fidelity. The best biological models are those FOR WHICH THE OUTCOME IS ALREADY KNOWN. In other words, because scientists understand so much, and can actually watch and record the movement itself, and they can model the movement. In the case of the weather models, the final outcome is of course unknown. Furthermore, the ‘skeleton’ of the weather, that is, the critical parameters that contribute to the final outcome are incompletely defined. Until just recently, the temperatures in the upper atmosphere had not been measured accurately. Also, some scientists are wondering what other physical factors (and to what degree) will affect global temperature (such as volcanic eruptions, solar activity, etc.) Also unknown is how accurate the models will be in the long term given the incomplete input in the short term. Already, many iterations of long term warming models have been dispensed with due wild inaccuracies in the short term.

    But what if the models are true? Strict materialists, who believe that life arose spontaneously billions of years ago and evolved into what we see now, have expounded on the virtues and survival capabilities of natural selection and Darwinian evolution. The earth that changed around evolving species saw incredible upheavals, and life survived and adapted. Are we to believe now that humans will be incapable of adapting to a maximum predicted rise of 2 degrees over the next 100 years? It’s depressing to think that scientists and politicians have less confidence in the adaptability of modern man over say the Neanderthal.

    And what about the scientists? Are they honest? Are they agenda free? Will they get funded if they model the future weather patterns and claim that things will be largely the same as now? In the health sciences, funding flows to those who are trying to find the causes of disease and the cures for such diseases – in fact, most governmental grants require some justification that research will have implications for some human disease. Thus, scientists are trained, or more accurately, forced, to study topics that in some way negatively affect humans. If you don’t, you’re much less likely to get funding. Look at the scientists studying educational techniques. Do they continue to get funded if they publish papers with titles like ‘Current methods for teaching math to fourth graders are perfectly adequate’ or do they get funding if they produce a new method with ‘better’ results? Is it in their interest to find new and ‘better’ methods or to say things are just fine? Scientists are human beings, and they have to put dinner on the table, etc. They are subject to all the pressures to produce and uncover something novel and unique. Many are honest and have high integrity; some are not.

    And that brings us to the political side. Ever since ‘Silent Spring’ by Rachel Carson, science has been infused with a dramatic spirit of activism. Mercury, lead, cholesterol levels, trans-fats, other chemicals naturally occurring in the environment (like radon) or from chemical plants, nuclear plants (tritium, warmed water released into streams), to stuff in our drinks (caffeine, etc. etc.) have all been treated with the same general approach: Something is killing us and something must be done. In many cases, the scientists were right and in many other cases they were horribly wrong (as in the case of DDT). The popularized image took hold of the caring activist exposing the cloistered huddling diabolical industrial company CEO who was deliberately poisoning the rest of us and cackling about it on his yacht (with heliport). There were battles to be fought and won, but activism itself took hold as an end in and of itself, with almost a religious fervor. Al Gore is celebrated because he is trying to right a wrong, and anyone opposed must be on the side of that stereotypical fat cat CEO. There seems to be no middle ground where people can say “There is an issue that needs to be addressed and handled rationally.” I cite as a very recent example the column from Nicholas Kristof in the NYT where he says we have more to fear from Girl Scouts wielding peanut butter cookies with trans-fats that we have to fear from al Quaeda wielding box cutters and machetes. Without some return to rationality from scientists, politicians, activists and even the fat cat CEOs, there’s no hope that the global warming issue itself will be anything more than a televised, agenda driven shouting match.
    "Never, never ever support a punk like mraynrand. Rather be as I am and feel real sympathy for his sickness." - Woodbuck

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    • #32
      Originally posted by mraynrand
      It’s depressing to think that scientists and politicians have less confidence in the adaptability of modern man over say the Neanderthal.
      Great post mraynrand! Reality: it's depressing to realize that human greed guides both scientists and politicians and it will play a very big role in our adapability to global climate and population change.

      Models are predictions, just like sports betting, weather forecasting, and birth due dates. Guesstimations are all they are. But that's what has kept us alive and evolving. Models are what allows us to be prepared for virus outbreaks. Models are what gets us prepared for tornado and hurricane season, both of which are inevitable. Models are what prepares us for fire season, earthquakes and tsunamis. I guess the bottom line is that models are subjective, but they hold kernels of truth.

      tyler
      Receive thy new Possessor: One who brings
      A mind not to be chang'd by Place or Time.
      The mind is its own place, and in it self
      Can make a Heav'n of Hell, a Hell of Heav'n.

      "Paradise Lost"-John Milton

      Comment


      • #33
        So you're saying that since we can't prove indisputably that the models are true, then we should say that the logic is all wrong and do nothing to clean up our planet? No one has answered my previous question. What would it really cost us to change our actions to more sustainable behaviors.

        Human stubbornness is already costing millions of lives. If you want proof, read the article on Samkon Gado wanting to be a doctor (NFL FRONT PAGE--GO SAM!). In that artice he talks about rampant AIDS. It is widely known in most parts of the world that the absolute most effective method of stopping this disease is to have monogamous sex only with an uninfected partner and barring that, using condoms religiously. People are dropping dead at an alarming rate, but refuse to change their behavior because they either don't trust the US to tell them the truth about it or some other reason but they are willing to risk their lives as there is inadequate medical care to diagnose and treat the disease on the African continent. A good percentage of their children are being born infected as well. You can't say this is a poverty issue either because monogamy doesn't cost anything.

        So again I ask, are we this stubborn that we will fault the research and not do things that could greatly benefit us and our children in the future?
        "Greatness is not an act... but a habit.Greatness is not an act... but a habit." -Greg Jennings

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        • #34
          I don't know how much I believe any of the pollution numbers I see about any countries. China is in the middle of an industrial revolution, and I have trouble believing they're being any cleaner about it than the western world was. AFAIK they don't have the environmental watchdog groups over there, so where are these pollution #'s coming from? Government and big business?
          --
          Imagine for a moment a world without hypothetical situations...

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          • #35
            mraynrand; you have of course identified the problems in believing too strongly in any of the predictive models used, we have no way of knowing which, if any, are accurate. That is what I was glibly referring to in my earlier post. Some 35 years ago, the science community had their models that predicted the world was entering a new ice age, now its global warming. As a whole we did little or nothing to correct the first problem, let alone reverse it by 180 degrees.

            The problem with any of the predictive models used in the environmental analysis is that we have a very poor understanding of the natural phenomena that are occuring. In simple terms, would the earth be experiencing the same level of "global warming" even without the influence of man? Some but less? None at all? These are questions no one knows the answers to. Models developed by different groups come up with quite different answers.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by MJZiggy
              So you're saying that since we can't prove indisputably that the models are true, then we should say that the logic is all wrong and do nothing to clean up our planet? No one has answered my previous question. What would it really cost us to change our actions to more sustainable behaviors.
              The point is that some of the models are highly speculative, and are based on highly biased and/or incomplete inputs. With that starting point, how are we to determine what are more sustainable behaviors? In the case of Africa, the science and the corrections that will be effective are not disputed. Whether people choose to believe them or not, or change their behaviour or not, is what is killing them, not the accurracy of any models.

              Sometimes, the science is wrong, and people die because of it. That is certainly the case with DDT, where fear of thinning eggshells and the possibility of thousands of cancer deaths resulted in the actual millions of malaria deaths.
              "Never, never ever support a punk like mraynrand. Rather be as I am and feel real sympathy for his sickness." - Woodbuck

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              • #37
                Originally posted by MJZiggy
                So again I ask, are we this stubborn that we will fault the research and not do things that could greatly benefit us and our children in the future?
                As you can see, even the research is politicized. For every nugget of research that identifies a problem, research is funded to dispute or deny the existence of a problem. Mostly, I think this comes back around to human greed. Take overpopulation: without the bird flu pandemic or some other massive natural correction, all signs point to an large increase in the population of the planet in the next 40 years. Historical trends have increased the population of the planet by billions throughout the 1900s. There's no reason to think that won't continue. The pattern of a potential problem is there, but people choose to bicker as to whether or not its an actual problem, whether or not historical trends and patterns will lead to an unfavorable result.

                But, truly, isn't that WHY we do research? Don't we do research to be proactive, to try to address problems before they hit us? If a pattern or a trend or a model suggests an unfavorable result, as weather researchers and government officials predicted for New Orleans, then why are we adverse to addressing a potential problem?

                Apathy? Complacency? Or does the color of money guide all of our decisions?

                tyler
                Receive thy new Possessor: One who brings
                A mind not to be chang'd by Place or Time.
                The mind is its own place, and in it self
                Can make a Heav'n of Hell, a Hell of Heav'n.

                "Paradise Lost"-John Milton

                Comment


                • #38
                  Don't forget, "environmental correction" is itself a big business. There are financial interests on both sides of the issue. There is money to be made and money to be lost no matter which path is chosen.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by shamrockfan
                    Don't forget, "environmental correction" is itself a big business. There are financial interests on both sides of the issue. There is money to be made and money to be lost no matter which path is chosen.
                    Very true. Hence, what's right or wrong is pointless. Decisions and gambles will be made by those with enough money to make the rules, make the decisions. Truth is virtually impossible when greed rules.

                    tyler
                    Receive thy new Possessor: One who brings
                    A mind not to be chang'd by Place or Time.
                    The mind is its own place, and in it self
                    Can make a Heav'n of Hell, a Hell of Heav'n.

                    "Paradise Lost"-John Milton

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      so is everyone walking to and from work, and these computers are all run on hampster power?? probably not.

                      zig, of course people who live in areas of high air polution are likely to die of heart attacks, because those areas are also cities. were the average person does not walk or excersise and eats at Micky D's four or five times a day. Just like the statistic that says you are most likely to be in a car accident close to home. well don't you drive close too home twice as much as you drive away from home? since every long journey usually starts close to home.

                      i used to sell to a tissue converting facility. a bumper sticker on one of their lift trucks said. "if you think we should stop cutting down trees for paper, try wiping your ass on a piece of shrink wrap!"

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by jacks smirking revenge
                        But, truly, isn't that WHY we do research? Don't we do research to be proactive, to try to address problems before they hit us?
                        In a way, you reinforced one of my points. There actually is research ongoing that is done with no proactive or problem-based goal in mind. However, so much is geared to the proactive type, and the activist mentality has so permeated our culture that it's almost impossible for someone to think otherwise. You see it everywhere. The guys running the Mars rovers always say stuff like "Understanding how Mars dried out may help us prevent such a terrible fate here on Earth" Astronomers studying black holes or stars including our sun say "Understanding how solar flares are formed may help us divert a disaster here on Earth" or biological scientists "Understanding how mice store fat could help us understand Type II diabetes in humans" and on and on. You can just see a politician or activist following the scientists around waiting for an issue to grab hold of for their next campaign. In many cases, it's okay to have the research be focusedon humans and curing human disease, but the pervasive obsession over crisis and calamity is disconcerting.
                        "Never, never ever support a punk like mraynrand. Rather be as I am and feel real sympathy for his sickness." - Woodbuck

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by mraynrand
                          Originally posted by jacks smirking revenge
                          But, truly, isn't that WHY we do research? Don't we do research to be proactive, to try to address problems before they hit us?
                          In a way, you reinforced one of my points. There actually is research ongoing that is done with no proactive or problem-based goal in mind. However, so much is geared to the proactive type, and the activist mentality has so permeated our culture that it's almost impossible for someone to think otherwise. You see it everywhere. The guys running the Mars rovers always say stuff like "Understanding how Mars dried out may help us prevent such a terrible fate here on Earth" Astronomers studying black holes or stars including our sun say "Understanding how solar flares are formed may help us divert a disaster here on Earth" or biological scientists "Understanding how mice store fat could help us understand Type II diabetes in humans" and on and on. You can just see a politician or activist following the scientists around waiting for an issue to grab hold of for their next campaign. In many cases, it's okay to have the research be focusedon humans and curing human disease, but the pervasive obsession over crisis and calamity is disconcerting.
                          But our world is filled with calamity and crisis, isn't it? In the last two years, we faced the virtual destruction of an American city by mother nature and the eradication of hundreds of thousands of people in Indonesia by a tsunami. 80,000 people were killed by an earthquake in Pakistan. AIDS is rampant on the continent of Africa. We're destroying coral and fisheries at an alarming rate. When tragedies such as these are the regular headlines, you can understand why activism drives the bus.

                          I hate to refer to "V for Vendetta" again, but fear is an amazing motivator. Fear of terrorists. Fear of communists. Fear of disease. Fear of starvation. Fear of immigration. Fear of aliens. Fear of plagues and pandemics. Fear of war. Fear of peace. Fear of resource drain. Fear is everywhere we look. Fear is a tool used by the powerful to retain power.

                          So long as we're afraid, we're listening....

                          tyler
                          Receive thy new Possessor: One who brings
                          A mind not to be chang'd by Place or Time.
                          The mind is its own place, and in it self
                          Can make a Heav'n of Hell, a Hell of Heav'n.

                          "Paradise Lost"-John Milton

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Can you spin it such that Fear is the reason we have skyscrapers or electricity or television? Did fear inspire scientists to study and understand orbital mechanics?
                            "Never, never ever support a punk like mraynrand. Rather be as I am and feel real sympathy for his sickness." - Woodbuck

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Who really needs any type of research to know that we are exhausting our resources, polluting the land, air, and water, the poplulation is overcrowded, and that I would hate to think what it will be like for my great grandchildren.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by mraynrand
                                Can you spin it such that Fear is the reason we have skyscrapers or electricity or television? Did fear inspire scientists to study and understand orbital mechanics?
                                Obviously I can't and won't, but I guess I don't see the connection. I'm a firm believer in the advance of science and "have faith" in scientific discoveries. But a skyscraper, the harnessing of electricity or the creation of television are all human actions, essentially luxury items that have allowed our species to have a quicker and more comfortable evolution. Everything I've mentioned--and you, regarding black holes and global warming--are our scientists trying to understand our world and our universe. Yes, some people take that research and promote fear with the findings, but I think that's inevitable.

                                tyler
                                Receive thy new Possessor: One who brings
                                A mind not to be chang'd by Place or Time.
                                The mind is its own place, and in it self
                                Can make a Heav'n of Hell, a Hell of Heav'n.

                                "Paradise Lost"-John Milton

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