Ethanol, Smethanol

[MJZiggy]

Gasohol, Harlan!!! It's said that if they can make hydrogen just a tad less explosive and find a better way to convey it, it might make a good fuel. It's the explosive part there that has me just a tad worried...

We can grow the sugar in Mexico. (why not? they were talking about growing the corn there.)

[twoseven]

I saw the program Futurecar awhile back on Discovery channel or another of it's ilk and aside from ethanol, biodiesel, and hydrogen cars they had a feature on a father son team in France that have already built a car that runs on compressed air. Imagine the same kind of air tanks you might use for scuba but longer, and three to four of them underneath the car. The car itself is built very light and without much inside but the bare necessities. Doesn't look any more silly than some of the hybrids out there. Filling the tanks would be as easy as using the compressed air station for tires at any service station. They envisioned putting an air generator right on the car eventually to make the idea of never having to stop for fuel a reality. They even went so far as to claim selling the vehicle for modest prices.

Here's a couple links, and IMO this is the answer over anything else mentioned thus far, and the direction I wish we would head.

http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Air_car_runs_on_compressed_air_0104.html

and

http://www.theaircar.com/

[MJZiggy]

I saw the program Futurecar awhile back on Discovery channel or another of it's ilk and aside from ethanol, biodiesel, and hydrogen cars they had a feature on a father son team in France that have already built a car that runs on compressed air. Imagine the same kind of air tanks you might use for scuba but longer, and three to four of them underneath the car. The car itself is built very light and without much inside but the bare necessities. Doesn't look any more silly than some of the hybrids out there. Filling the tanks would be as easy as using the compressed air station for tires at any service station. They envisioned putting an air generator right on the car eventually to make the idea of never having to stop for fuel a reality. They even went so far as to claim selling the vehicle for modest prices.

Here's a couple links, and IMO this is the answer over anything else mentioned thus far, and the direction I wish we would head.

http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Air_car_runs_on_compressed_air_0104.html

and

http://www.theaircar.com/

I love innovation!! I love the contests that they have every now and again where you have to use unconventional fuels to make the car go. What fun!

[Patler]

OK, I've heard that ethanol is less energy dense than gasoline. But then what the hell does octane rating meaning?????

I assume, silly me, that an octane rating of 91 must have the same energy density, and therefore mileage, whether the fuel was constructed with gasoline, ethanol, or banana juice.

Help me. Someone help me, please.

Harlan;

I will try to explain the correlation between fuel octane and vehicle engines in simple terms. Gear heads out there will undoubtedly point out that it is much more complex than what I will state, but since this is not a discussion of high performance engines, the following should suffice.

Octane rating in gasoline is simply an indication of the percentage of octane in the fuel. Octane is a hydrocarbon chain that includes eight carbon atoms. (Propane, for example is a three carbon chain, butane a four carbon chain, pentane five, etc.)

Crude oil is a mixture of many different hydrocarbons, and in a refinery the different constituents are separated. Since each vaporizes at a different temperature they can be separated initially by fractional distillation, which includes vaporization of the crude oil, condensation of the different components in the crude at different levels in the fractionating column and subsequent collection. A refinery is much more complex than just distilling. It also uses chemical processing to convert one fraction to another to increase the yield of desired products from the crude.

The fuels we use are not "pure", but are mixtures of different hydrocarbons from the refining process. (There are various reasons for blending that I will not go in to.) Hydrocarbon fuels that have smaller chains (fewer carbons in the chain) spontaneously ignite at lower compression. In a gasoline engine you want ignition to occur by spark from the sparkplug, not spontaneously from compression. If compression ignition occurs before the spark ignites the fuel, we have "engine knock". By increasing the percentage of octane in a fuel, higher compressions can be used without spontaneous compression ignition occurring. In simple terms, increased compression generally means increased horsepower for an engine of the same size. Increased compression requires higher octane fuel to avoid compression ignition. Increased compression can be achieved various ways, including basic engine design, the addition of turbochargers, etc. Engine tuning can also impact the fuel octane rating required for the engine to run efficiently.

The long and short of it is that using a higher octane fuel than your engine requires is simply a waste of money. Your engine is designed and tuned to work at a specific compression with a fuel of a specified octane rating. Using a higher octane fuel does not appreciable change the engine performance, and may even decrease performance. Higher octane fuels are more stable, more difficult to ignite. A very high octane fuel in an engine not designed to use it may not burn completely, and might yield a lower mpg than a lower octane fuel.

The greatest economy generally results from using the lowest octane fuel that your engine will run on without appreciable knocking. I should point out that most engine experts will tell you that some engine knock is OK, but "significant" (whatever that means) engine knock can damage an engine.

[Harlan Huckleby]

wow, great explanation, Patler. thanks.

I've been putting premium fuel in my Grand Marquee in cold weather thinking, well, that it would be happier. This has been like giving Perrier water to the dog.

[Iron Mike]

Well, my dad is a bit of a crazy guy, but he will only fill up with Racine gas.

Your Dad better get out of Racilla before someone busts a cap in his ass.

[Patler]

wow, great explanation, Patler. thanks.

I've been putting premium fuel in my Grand Marquee in cold weather thinking, well, that it would be happier. This has been like giving Perrier water to the dog.

"Like giving Perrier water to the dog", I like the analogy!

Check you owner's manual for the octane rating specified for the Grand Marquee. Use a higher octane than that only if your engine "knocks" or "pings" Some engines, for whatever reason based on their tuning, will knock even at the specified fuel octane. If that happens, use the next higher octane.

[b bulldog]

Ethanol in the states will switch to switch grass imo because you can harvest it up to three times a year and it won't drive up food prices. It grows basicly everywhere, with little need for fertilizers and is also a very good habitat for wildlife. Ethanol as a whole is a bandaid because of the amount of energy needed to plant, fertilize, harvest, dry, and getting it to the pump. IMO, this is not the future but just a stop gap measure until fuel cell ect are more readily available.

[Scott Campbell]

wow, great explanation, Patler. thanks.

I've been putting premium fuel in my Grand Marquee in cold weather thinking, well, that it would be happier. This has been like giving Perrier water to the dog.

I don't think your Grand Mark is on Al Gore's approved vehicle list for the Friends of Global Warming Propaganda. Maybe you could get the government to give you a hybrid.

[MJZiggy]

wow, great explanation, Patler. thanks.

I've been putting premium fuel in my Grand Marquee in cold weather thinking, well, that it would be happier. This has been like giving Perrier water to the dog.

I don't think your Grand Mark is on Al Gore's approved vehicle list for the Friends of Global Warming Propaganda. Maybe you could get the government to give you a hybrid.

He can't afford it, but the rich folks I see driving around here in their expensive Priuses (I couldn't afford one so I had to settle for an Acura instead) get a tax break for helping the environment.

[LL2]

I like the air car website. Not sure how viable the company is, but I like the idea. I'd even consider getting one of their electric scooters to help support the company. I think they would have many challenges passing DOT regulations though, but it's good to see many are being creative to solve this gasoline addiction we have.