"No Child" leaves children behind

[MJZiggy]

I wish they would do that here. We have a DHOH program here and they test those kids and the rest of them have to make up the difference.

[Harlan Huckleby]

It's another Clinton liberal lefty idea that didn't work. .... Now, the other Clinton wants a national health care solution that will fail miserably. While it sounds like a great idea, and warm and fuzzy like "No Child Left Behind," it will cost the gov't and businesses billions yet fail.

You didn't know that NCLB was a Republican idea. And then your comment on health care suggests you have not a clue what the Democrats are proposing with healthcare.

There are going to be changes in health care. If you think the current system is OK, you have your head in the sand. Whatever the Democrats get through is likely to be a modest experiment, more change will be needed.

[RashanGary]

I don't know, HH. Barack is starting to look like an unstoppable force and they say the democratic majority is going to expand in the house and senate.

Something might acctually get done in the next presidential term. Will it be for the better? I don't know, but there is a good chance that there is a major shake up in health care.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I like the concept of vouchers.

There is nothing wrong with vouchers in principle, I don't mind blending this option in. I question whether the people who support vouchers have a commitment to improving public education. If we give up on public schools, it will lead to even more drastic inequality in opportunity.

[MJZiggy]

It's another Clinton liberal lefty idea that didn't work. .... Now, the other Clinton wants a national health care solution that will fail miserably. While it sounds like a great idea, and warm and fuzzy like "No Child Left Behind," it will cost the gov't and businesses billions yet fail.

You didn't know that NCLB was a Republican idea. And then your comment on health care suggests you have not a clue what the Democrats are proposing with healthcare.

There are going to be changes in health care. If you think the current system is OK, you have your head in the sand. Whatever the Democrats get through is likely to be a modest experiment, more change will be needed.

I wish Bush would have said that about NCLB...

[CyclonePackFan]

The thing that really scares me isn't that children are being left behind, it's that enough children AREN'T being left behind. Some of the things I'm starting to see in my old high school and here in college are scaring the shit out of me. It seems to me that secondary education has two BIG problems.

1.) Schools are passing through students who should be failing.
2.) Students that should be just "passing" are getting inflated grades.

I fear that we've become so obsessed with making our youth feel good about themselves we're decreasing the quality of the education. I always hear from candidates that they want "more scientists and engineers", students proficient in math and science. They're going to get it, but what good are a ton of new engineers if THEY AREN'T QUALIFIED TO BE ENGINEERS? I had an opportunity to TA a course last semester, and it struck me that students just want to be "told" the answer to a question. They don't want to put the effort into finding the solution themselves, and they got the hell blown out of them on the exams when they had to take basic principles and apply them to a problem they hadn't seen before. Personally, I blame the internet. When I was in grade school, if I wanted to do a report, I had to go hunt through my shelf of Encyclopedias to get good information, and actually research. Now you can just go to Wikipedia.

When I went home to Wisconsin for Christmas, I opened up my local newspaper. First thought... "Jesus Christ... the entire middle school is on the B-honor roll or better!" What's worse, they've opened a "Renaissance" school for high schoolers. Students who can't hack it (not just those who have learning issues) in the standard high school are relegated to the Renaissance school, where they get to go though fluff classes and literally, get an "A" for the week if they show up every day. As a result, the graduation rate for the high school skyrockets, and the Renaissance students are still allowed to graduate with a standard diploma.

What I'm wondering is...why don't we start giving incentives to fail students? The more students who fail (within limit - it doesn't do any good to just let teachers fail everyone and get incentives), the more money the school gets. Make the "average" a "C" again, and schools that do have lots of students who need help get more money.

[/rant]

Jesus, that was long. Sorry, this subject just really pisses me off.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I don't know, HH. Barack is starting to look like an unstoppable force and they say the democratic majority is going to expand in the house and senate.

Something might acctually get done in the next presidential term. Will it be for the better? I don't know, but there is a good chance that there is a major shake up in health care.

Ya, things will get done. The Democrats are going to expand access to private health insurance. Will this work? We'll see. This is an evolutionary change, not a revolution.

Is the problem the insurance companies? Their priority is to make profit, not serve the public. Can their behavior really be reformed? I'm a little skeptical, but its worth a try, since this is the politically realistic approach right now.

I think ultimately a more drastic change is needed. But we'll see.

[Harlan Huckleby]

When I went home to Wisconsin for Christmas, I opened up my local newspaper. First thought... "Jesus Christ... the entire middle school is on the B-honor roll or better!"

Sounds like you live in Lake Wobogan.

What's worse, they've opened a "Renaissance" school for high schoolers. Students who can't hack it (not just those who have learning issues) in the standard high school are relegated to the Renaissance school, where they get to go though fluff classes and literally, get an "A" for the week if they show up every day.

I know an alternative school that works VERY well, the only problem is the waiting list to get in. I knew two problem kids who went through it, and both ended up getting PHDs. There is a need for a school that gives lost kids some extra attention.

I agree that the inflated grades are terrible though, if that is indeed the case. And on a related note, its RIDICULOUS that special ed kids get the same diploma as other students.

[MJZiggy]

I thought they used to give out a "life skills" diploma for special ed kids. I guess it depends on how special your ed needs to be. I think M3 should run the schools. Teach and demand. It's like they try the teach part and forget the demand...

[CyclonePackFan]

I know an alternative school that works VERY well, the only problem is the waiting list to get in. I knew two problem kids who went through it, and both ended up getting PHDs. There is a need for a school that gives lost kids some extra attention.

I don't have a problem with alternative schools for students who need special attention, in fact, I think it's awesome. I will never fault a kid who gives it everything he/she has. Just because a child has a problem learning doesn't mean he/she's not brilliant.

However, many of the students who get sent there are habitually truant, got suspended for repeatedly fighting, etc. Basically those who just don't give a damn. That's what really upsets me.

[packinpatland]

I have three daughters.......two graduated in the top 3% of their class. One of those is now attending Yale. My third daughter is one of those 'special needs' kids. I've had to fight equally hard for both forms of 'gifted'.

In retrospect.......I should have fought harder for my special daughter.........the other two have the capabilities to make their own way. Unless you've been in the position to see both ends of the spectrum.....the saying 'walk in my shoes' comes to mind.

Sorta rambled there..........it's a hard..........

[Harlan Huckleby]

However, many of the students who get sent there are habitually truant, got suspended for repeatedly fighting, etc. Basically those who just don't give a damn. That's what really upsets me.

But these ARE kids with problems. If they can function in an alternative school, and get used to learning SOMETHING, this is far better than kicking them out of school.

Not that an alternative school is going to save every messed-up, drugged-out kid. Some kids simply have to be expelled. But damn, I know they work for some kids.

[MJZiggy]

However, many of the students who get sent there are habitually truant, got suspended for repeatedly fighting, etc. Basically those who just don't give a damn. That's what really upsets me.

But these ARE kids with problems. If they can function in an alternative school, and get used to learning SOMETHING, this is far better than kicking them out of school.

Not that an alternative school is going to save every messed-up, drugged-out kid. Some kids simply have to be expelled. But damn, I know they work for some kids.

I'm getting the impression that CPF is not upset about the existence of the program as much as the fact that just for showing up, they're awarded the same diploma as everyone else without the knowledge that the mainstream kids have gained, and therefore without the capability to function after graduation be it in college or in a job.

And Harlan, you're right. They do work well for those kids who put in the effort and still struggle for the understanding of the concepts they're supposed to be learning. It would be nice if all parents took as much responsibility for their kids' education as some do. Too bad they don't.

[CyclonePackFan]

However, many of the students who get sent there are habitually truant, got suspended for repeatedly fighting, etc. Basically those who just don't give a damn. That's what really upsets me.

But these ARE kids with problems. If they can function in an alternative school, and get used to learning SOMETHING, this is far better than kicking them out of school.

Not that an alternative school is going to save every messed-up, drugged-out kid. Some kids simply have to be expelled. But damn, I know they work for some kids.

Different perspectives, I guess. I'm sure the school helps a lot of students. I'm basing my judgment off my experience in high school. From my perspective, the purpose of the school wasn't to help those who really needed it, it was a place to throw out the bottom part of the class. My "class size" was officially around 190 people. However, around 250 were at the graduation ceremony, which is what we started with as freshmen. To me, throwing 25% of the class to Renaissance reeks of an attempt to skew statistics.

[CyclonePackFan]

I'm getting the impression that CPF is not upset about the existence of the program as much as the fact that just for showing up, they're awarded the same diploma as everyone else without the knowledge that the mainstream kids have gained, and therefore without the capability to function after graduation be it in college or in a job.

And Harlan, you're right. They do work well for those kids who put in the effort and still struggle for the understanding of the concepts they're supposed to be learning. It would be nice if all parents took as much responsibility for their kids' education as some do. Too bad they don't.

Thank you. My thoughts exactly, very eloquently put.