Recession coming

[Scott Campbell]

I'm pro-business, very pragmatic, am very concious of growing the economy.

No you're not. Your proposed policies make taking on the financial risk of starting a business look completely fool hardy.

[Scott Campbell]

Harlan is like the chess player that can only look one move ahead. Sure, stealing from the rich and giving to the poor sounds like a good deal on face value - if you're poor.

A rising economic tide will raise all ships - even Harlan's little dinghy.

I'm pro-business, very pragmatic, am very concious of growing the economy.

Hey, I don't want to steal from the rich. Just want them to pay a fair share of taxes. "Fair" being as how americans have generally agreed taxes should work, in prinicple. The rich are getting away with murder in the particulars of our tax system.

You're a fool Harlan. If you weren't so obsessed with "fair", you'd get them to pay more.

If your theories were so generally agreed upon, why do all these tax dodges exist? Why will my Roth income not be taxed?

[Harlan Huckleby]

Harlan's tax policies will penalize achievement, and subsidize mediocrity.

Lets be clear what my vision of taxes would look like:

Everybody would pay a flat tax rate, after perhaps a 20K standard deduction to help those at the bottom.

Capital gains would be taxed just like wages.

Social Secuity would be paid for out of the treasury, rather than collected seperately in an inequitable manner.

That's it. I'm a wild-eyed crazy, eh!!!!

[Scott Campbell]

Public education, Social Security, Unemployment Insurance, these programs that you regular attack keep our country from unraveling.

1) I'm for public education.
2) Social Security is a complete mess, as you have already agreed.
3) Where have I commented on Unemployment insurance?

[Harlan Huckleby]

I'm pro-business, very pragmatic, am very concious of growing the economy.

No you're not. Your proposed policies make taking on the financial risk of starting a business look completely fool hardy.

I would end all corporate taxes and taxes on business profits.

I would provide basic health insurance so that small businesses and entrepreneurs have a fighting chance.

I would be generous in admitting Mexicans as guest workers and citizens so that businesses have adequate labor supply.

I am a strong advocate of free trade.

Guess what Scott, I am extremely pro-business.
My socialist side is that I want to generously help people who suffer from the policies that I advocate, help people educate themselves, retrain and remain productive.

There will be a substantial tax burden to pull this off, but mitigated by robust revenues from a healthy economy, as you supply siders are so fond of emphasising.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Public education, Social Security, Unemployment Insurance, these programs that you regular attack keep our country from unraveling.

1) I'm for public education.
2) Social Security is a complete mess, as you have already agreed.
3) Where have I commented on Unemployment insurance?

your comments on the layed-off Ohio worker speak volumes.

SS - you are prepared to trash it rather than fix it.

Public Education - your comments on vouchers as fix are not encouraging. That is a big topic.

Your hostitilty to paying taxes, even simply at the same rate that working people pay them, show little commitment to the general welfare.

[Partial]

Partial, if you are going to hold such strong opinions, you really ought to look into the facts. People in the upper middle class, as you so tenderly describe your people, have many tax advantages beyond hiding money in the Cayman Islands.

Such as? These people are getting 35% of their money taken. There are people out there who don't pay any taxes and get money back. How unfair is that? Those people likely work 5 hours a week, where as somewhere earning 100k in Wisconsin is probably putting in 60+ hours a week.

People who earn 20K ->80K are really, really getting fucked. Every dollar they earn gets clobbered by the Social Security tax. (I won't repeat why the SS collection/accounting is a massive tax offset benefiting wealthier person, I doubt you are listening anyway.) And just as importantly, people earning > 80K are taking far greater advantage of the Capital Gains dodge.

Every dollar for everyone is taxed. SS is dumb but I say keep it around for awhile longer. People earning 20k don't get taxed. People earning 50k and up bear the burden for those earning less. That's BS. Perhaps they should work a little harder or choose a different career path. Capital gains are taxed as well. Only since the ROTH ira came out did they stop that, realizing these people are paying 5% of their money to SS and they will never see a dime of it.

You & Scott have expressed the view that taxes should be similar to other expenses, more-or-less fixed costs, rather than a percentage of income. I get the rational for your argument. You have to accept that you are at odds with the vast majority of Americans who do not view this approach as fair. Your views are extremist right wing, which doesn't in itself make them wrong.

Personally, I think the vast majority of American's are lazy idiots, so I would expect to disagree with them. With the bloated government we have, a hearty chunk of them are employees toting the company line hoping for a raise. I don't think my views are extreme at all, I think Fair Tax is a very fair and moderate idea. If people that make a lot of money spend a lot of money, then they pay the penalty. The people like my dad that live on less money than most people on welfare despite earning 100k+ won't be penalized and asked to foot the bill for society. In my opinion, its called fair tax because it truly is fair. It takes care of the really poor, it takes care of the upper middle class and warren buffet types who live extremely frugally, and most importantly it gets rid of the tax form and makes every person in America, not just citizens or those smart enough to fill out the form, to pay their fair share. The people that are too poor to pay their fair share should live within their means and they will have their expenses paid back in the form of a monthly rebate check.

Your views reflect no sense of shared social responsibility. We passed that threshold about 200 years ago.

It's kind of funny because I don't think yours do. You want the poor people and the illegals and tourists to get off without paying. You want to penalize those who work hard and make a lot of money, while lifting the burden from the poor. The tax system right now is set-up to almost have a socialist society where everyone is equal. I think thats bullshit because people who are smart and work hard should be rewarded. I think your way is 200 years old, not mine.

[Partial]

The IRS is spending 42 million to alert every american that their rebate check will be coming to them. Why bother?

That is like spending $42 to explain/promote a $160,000 program. That doesn't sound so unreasonable now, does it?

Actually, if the 42M is stupidly spent then it is wasted, of course. I don't know the justification, maybe you are right.

I suspect it is to let people know to look for the check so they don't accidentally throw it away thinking it's more advertising. It comes out to about 31 cents per check.

Waste of money. That's 42 million that I should never have foot the bill on.

[Harlan Huckleby]

If your theories were so generally agreed upon, why do all these tax dodges exist? Why will my Roth income not be taxed?

The tax dodges exist because they are popular. Everybody thinks they pay too much, even if they agree on a general standard of fairness. The system is hopelessy corrupted by power. "Power" being voters and moneyed interests.

Tax system needs to be drastically simplied. My mitigated flat tax idea isn't bad.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Partial, if you are going to hold such strong opinions, you really ought to look into the facts. People in the upper middle class, as you so tenderly describe your people, have many tax advantages beyond hiding money in the Cayman Islands.

Such as? These people are getting 35% of their money taken.

Partial, listen to that radio show. It is interesting, includes different points of view. People with significant income are not actually paying 35%. The very wealthy are paying around 18%. Not sure what the figure is for your Pops.

[Partial]

Harlan is like the chess player that can only look one move ahead. Sure, stealing from the rich and giving to the poor sounds like a good deal on face value - if you're poor.

A rising economic tide will raise all ships - even Harlan's little dinghy.

I'm pro-business, very pragmatic, am very concious of growing the economy.

Hey, I don't want to steal from the rich. Just want them to pay a fair share of taxes. "Fair" being as how americans have generally agreed taxes should work, in prinicple. The rich are getting away with murder in the particulars of our tax system.

No you're not.

Then answer me this Harlan, if taxing of job providers and companies is smart and good for the economy and society, than why are many, many, many companies moving south to Texas, where they won't be taxed on their earnings by the state gov. I think to say that we're extreme right wingers on our view on taxes is foolish. It's also pulled out of your ass. I would say a good majority of the people who clear 6 figures feel the same way.

Wouldn't me paying 10% of taxes at 100k, or 10,000 more than my fair share when 20% of the population pays negative tax money (gets money back versus paying taxes) and when someone earning 50k pays 5,000?

Since thats twice what some people are paying, I'd say thats more than my fair share.

[Scott Campbell]

Capital gains are taxed as well.

Not all of them. Capital gains (under $500K) from the sale of your primary residence are excluded from any capital gains tax. And you can do it every two years. If you think the housing market is in a collapse now, wait until Harlan eliminates one of the most basic advantages of the American Dream - home ownership.

[Harlan Huckleby]

It's kind of funny because I don't think yours do. You want the poor people and the illegals and tourists to get off without paying.

Actually, I'm not so hostile to the Fair Tax, such as Huckabee proposed. It would be better than what we have, if some offsets were made to help those at the bottom end.

Probably some hybrid of simplified income tax and national sales tax could work.

[Partial]

I won't repeat why the SS collection/accounting is a massive tax offset benefiting wealthier person.

Wealthy people don't need Social Security benefits, yet they are required by law to contribute a portion of their earned income to the program anyway. I'd argue that most people (outside of AARP members) in this country would be better off without Social Security. We've mortgaged the future of our younger generation in order to pay for the lack of planning of our older generations. That's what happens when you rely on the government to take care of you. But they, like Harlan, meant well.

Harlan's tax policies will penalize achievement, and subsidize mediocrity. And that is perfect if you're Chinese, Indian, or any of the other countries of the world hoping to compete with lazy Americans.

If I invested that 6.2% of my earnings every year from now until I retire at 75-80, I would have an assload of money and would have no need for the program. Harlan doesn't understand this though.

He also doesn't get that wealthy business owners are again fucked over because they are expected to pay twice as much in. A whopping 12.4%. What Harlan doesn't get is that extra 6.2% would be much better served in the form of pay increases to the lower end employees, but the business owner decides not to give anyone a raise since taxes cut his profits literally in half.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Then answer me this Harlan, if taxing of job providers and companies is smart and good for the economy and society, than why are many, many, many companies moving south to Texas, where they won't be taxed on their earnings by the state gov.

I guess you missed my comment that I would eliminate ALL corporate and business taxes.

You listen like I fly, as my Junior High School chemistry teacher used to say. Christ, I hated chemistry.