Recession coming

[Scott Campbell]

If your theories were so generally agreed upon, why do all these tax dodges exist? Why will my Roth income not be taxed?

The tax dodges exist because they are popular.

More Harlan bullshit. They don't make up tax rules like this just to win popularity contests. They're trying to create desired behavior. Roth tax rules create desired savings behavior.

Reagan's investment tax credits in the 80's created investment in business - creating more jobs and growing the tax base - at the expense of Harlan's brand of "fairness".

[Harlan Huckleby]

Capital gains are taxed as well.

Not all of them. Capital gains (under $500K) from the sale of your primary residence are excluded from any capital gains tax. And you can do it every two years. If you think the housing market is in a collapse now, wait until Harlan eliminates one of the most basic advantages of the American Dream - home ownership.

This is one area that would be tough to eliminate, people love all their housing tax breaks. Capital Gains, mortgage deduction, etc.

But all the shit has to go.

[Partial]

Partial, if you are going to hold such strong opinions, you really ought to look into the facts. People in the upper middle class, as you so tenderly describe your people, have many tax advantages beyond hiding money in the Cayman Islands.

Such as? These people are getting 35% of their money taken.

Partial, listen to that radio show. It is interesting, includes different points of view. People with significant income are not actually paying 35%. The very wealthy are paying around 18%. Not sure what the figure is for your Pops.

Right, the very, very wealthy. Not the 100-200k per year wealthy. I have a connection to the vice president of the southern region of one of America's largest companies. My friend is dating his daughter. In any case, the company is smart and operates out of texas so they don't pay state tax on their gains, and then he makes enough money that he pays a personal accountant a salary to invest his money in real estate as well as other entities to avoid having to pay taxes. In the end, instead of paying 35%, he is still paying like 15% or so. However, that 15% of say 500k is a hell of a lot more than average Joe's 20-25% of 40k. He is contributing far more than his fair share.

100-200k employees cannot afford to do this. They can't buy commercial property and higher an employee to manage it. They can't have their own accountant who they employ (another tax break).

Like I said HH, those people make too much money to get any sort of tax breaks or incentives, yet they don't make enough to hide money and get away with not paying as high of a percentage.

[Harlan Huckleby]

If your theories were so generally agreed upon, why do all these tax dodges exist? Why will my Roth income not be taxed?

The tax dodges exist because they are popular.

More Harlan bullshit. They don't make up tax rules like this just to win popularity contests. They're trying to create desired behavior. Roth tax rules create desired savings behavior.

Reagan's investment tax credits in the 80's created investment in business - creating more jobs and growing the tax base - at the expense of Harlan's brand of "fairness".

I am against using tax policy to influence behavior. You end up with a mess like we have today.

And the theory that reducing taxes on investment income benefits the economy is a little twisted. It helps the economy, in its way, and leads to wealth concentrated at the top. You might just as well say you are going to lower taxes on people in the lower and middle classes, since they are likely to spend their money, and therefore stimulate the economy. Like our current stimulus package.

A fair, simple tax system will do JUST FINE.

[Partial]

Then answer me this Harlan, if taxing of job providers and companies is smart and good for the economy and society, than why are many, many, many companies moving south to Texas, where they won't be taxed on their earnings by the state gov.

I guess you missed my comment that I would eliminate ALL corporate and business taxes.

You listen like I fly, as my Junior High School chemistry teacher used to say. Christ, I hated chemistry.

I don't read threads in backwards order.

[Scott Campbell]

I am against using tax policy to influence behavior. .

Too late, you already have. I'm going to join your party and the ranks of the lower middle class. In your world, it's a lot more fun there.

[Harlan Huckleby]

If I invested that 6.2% of my earnings every year from now until I retire at 75-80, I would have an assload of money and would have no need for the program. Harlan doesn't understand this though.

Maybe you would be just fine. The SS system is supposed to be a buffer against bad luck and bad choices. People in 1920 also had the option to invest wisely, as you expect to do. Doesn't work out for all. SS was created for a reason.

[Scott Campbell]

This is one area that would be tough to eliminate, people love all their housing tax breaks. Capital Gains, mortgage deduction, etc.

But all the shit has to go.

Including the Roth?



Dude, people can buy and sell houses every 2 years (ahead of this current collapse), making up to $500K tax free on each transaction. That's potentially $5M in 10 years in loopholes that you'd leave in the system - just because people love their housing breaks.

Like I said, you're like the chess player that can't see beyond one move. How long did it take me to figure out how to work the MIT subsidy for poor folk? I can play your "fairness" game all day long, and beat it. Easily. There's always a way.

The answer is simple. lower rates, grow the economy, create jobs, collect more real tax dollars instead of less Harlan dollars.

Harlan, you and your divisionary politics will leave the country in shambles, but everyone can console each other at soup kitchens with the pride that at least it's "fair".

[Scott Campbell]

The SS system is supposed to be a buffer against bad luck and bad choices.

Again, no it was not. This is another Harlan lie. Social Security pays out to everyone whether they need it or not.

[Harlan Huckleby]

The SS system is supposed to be a buffer against bad luck and bad choices.

Again, no it was not. This is another Harlan lie. Social Security pays out to everyone whether they need it or not.

You're a real piece of work. What you said is not in conflict with the patently true statement I made. Its supposed to be annuity, not paid out on basis of need, but the whole only point of the program was an insurance program for people who might otherwise be in trouble in their older years.

[Scott Campbell]

Harlan's agenda reminds me a lot of what happened at GM and in the American auto industry. I'm sure the bloated pension promises and higher than market wages looked like a great idea to union membership at the time. If they had looked two or three moves ahead, they may have realized that these Harlanesque efforts at "fairness" came at an incredible price. Granted, I'm sure they meant well. But now GM couldn't compete. Factories closed. Thriving communities were turned into ghost towns. People go without any jobs at all. GM now starts at a ~ $3000 pension fund liability disadvantage to Toyota on every vehicle they build. So how could they possibly thrive? And now Toyota is number 1.

If you want every city in America to look like Flint Michigan, then by all means follow Harlan's advice.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Including the Roth?

Dude, people can buy and sell houses every 2 years (ahead of this current collapse), making up to $500K tax free on each transaction. That's potentially $5M in 10 years in loopholes that you'd leave in the system - just because people love their housing breaks.

Don't follow what you are talking about. You've been crowing about how the Roth plan allows you to avoid paying taxes. Apparently you think the nation would be in peril if such tax shelters were removed. I don't believe it.

The tax code is a disaster because all the attempts at social & economic engineering. I believe the country would adjust and prosper under a simplified tax code.

Harlan, you and your divisionary politics will leave the country in shambles, but everyone can console each other at soup kitchens with the pride that at least it's "fair".

My politics are hardly divisive. You are the one who characterizes people as lazy or less worthy than yourself. I try to bridge the best ideas of different ideologies.

[Scott Campbell]

Capital gains would be taxed just like wages.

Have you done any math at all on this? Do you not recognize the time value of money?

Long term capital gains are in part taxed at a lower rate due to inflationary pressures that diminish the real gains.

(Example)

Income:
You typically get paid every two weeks for your work. There is virtually no inflationary effect on the spending power of the money you earn because you get paid right away.

Capital Gains:
You typically don't get paid until you sell your investment vehicle. Lets use 10 years in this example. I invest $100K for ten years, earning about 7% a year. At the end of the 10 years it's worth about $200K - about a $100K capital gain. The problem comes in because inflationary pressure has eaten away a huge portion of the purchasing power of both my initial investment, and the capital gain.

It's not taxed at the same rate as ordinary income because ordinary income is not punished by inflationary pressure the way investment income is.

But you continue to lead people to believe that its just because the wealthy are screwing the little guy - the politics of hate. Despicable.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Harlan's agenda reminds me a lot of what happened at GM and in the American auto industry. I'm sure the bloated pension promises and higher than market wages looked like a great idea to union membership at the time. If they had looked two or three moves ahead, they may have realized that these Harlanesque efforts at "fairness" came at an incredible price. Granted, I'm sure they meant well. But now GM couldn't compete. Factories closed. Thriving communities were turned into ghost towns. People go without any jobs at all. GM now starts at a ~ $3000 pension fund liability disadvantage to Toyota on every vehicle they build. So how could they possibly thrive? And now Toyota is number 1.

If you want every city in America to look like Flint Michigan, then by all means follow Harlan's advice.

I can make no connections, even indirect ones, between my opinions and your moral fable here. I have expressed no protectionist instincts. I'm for a dynamic free market, with a safety net to help the casualties.

[Scott Campbell]

Don't follow what you are talking about.

Agreed. You don't get it.