Recession coming

[Scott Campbell]

Don't follow what you are talking about. You've been crowing about how the Roth plan allows you to avoid paying taxes. Apparently you think the nation would be in peril if such tax shelters were removed. I don't believe it.

You are truly demented. The government created draw to the Roth savings plan was the tax benefits. That's how they got people to invest in them. They can't play bait and switch and take them away after they've already collected the money.

Now you're advocating fraud.

[Harlan Huckleby]

It's not taxed at the same rate as ordinary income because ordinary income is not punished by inflationary pressure the way investment income is.

But you continue to lead people to believe that its just because the wealthy are screwing the little guy - the politics of hate. Despicable.

Ridiculous. We are supposed to cover an investor's inflationary losses? Why? And "long term" kicks in after a single year, if I remember correctly.
Lame.

As far as politics of hate, that certainly does not describe me. You'll never hear me talking about the fat cats, I don't begrudge people their wealth. Good for them is my atittude. I simply want a more fair and transparent tax system.

[Scott Campbell]

I simply want a more fair and transparent tax system.

I don't believe it. You've been treated unjustly, and now you just want your sugar daddy.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Don't follow what you are talking about. You've been crowing about how the Roth plan allows you to avoid paying taxes. Apparently you think the nation would be in peril if such tax shelters were removed. I don't believe it.

You are truly demented. The government created draw to the Roth savings plan was the tax benefits. That's how they got people to invest in them. They can't play bait and switch and take them away after they've already collected the money.

Now you're advocating fraud.

Heee heee heee. I am no financial wizard, perhaps you've picked up on that.

Accomplishing my vision would require a long phase-in period. Major changes in the tax code can't be turned on a dime.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I simply want a more fair and transparent tax system.

I don't believe it. You've been treated unjustly, and now you just want your sugar daddy.

You keep trying to project your own tendencies into me. OK, that's a little harsh, I don't know why you think I am so ill-motivated.

I am not a vindictive person. I am not rapacious. I am not envious.

And most of all, as tricky dicky would say, I AM NOT A CROOK!

And I harbor no grievances.

[Scott Campbell]

I don't know why you think I am so ill-motivated.

Trust me, I don't believe you're motivated at all.

[The Leaper]

SS was created for a reason.

Yep...to be a blank check for Congress.

[LL2]

Debates like these can go in circles for hours. They are actually fun to watch and listen to. I tend to agree with Cambell, and Partial. Partial may be young and not always right, but he's on the right path.

[LL2]

If I invested that 6.2% of my earnings every year from now until I retire at 75-80, I would have an assload of money and would have no need for the program. Harlan doesn't understand this though.

Maybe you would be just fine. The SS system is supposed to be a buffer against bad luck and bad choices. People in 1920 also had the option to invest wisely, as you expect to do. Doesn't work out for all. SS was created for a reason.

SS was created because most people are too foolish to know how to invest that 6.2%, and create themselves a nice retirement nest egg. Like Partial I'd rather have that 6.2% to invest on my own, and not collect a SS check. My parents do pretty well financially, and about 7-8 years ago my father got a letter from the SS administration saying that he has fully paid into his SS. So, in essence what he has paid into SS for the last 8 years he will never see a dime of. His SS check will be the same no matter what. He's basically paying SS taxes so others can collect a check - I guess this is Harlanesque.

[Partial]

If I invested that 6.2% of my earnings every year from now until I retire at 75-80, I would have an assload of money and would have no need for the program. Harlan doesn't understand this though.

Maybe you would be just fine. The SS system is supposed to be a buffer against bad luck and bad choices. People in 1920 also had the option to invest wisely, as you expect to do. Doesn't work out for all. SS was created for a reason.

SS was created because most people are too foolish to know how to invest that 6.2%, and create themselves a nice retirement nest egg. Like Partial I'd rather have that 6.2% to invest on my own, and not collect a SS check. My parents do pretty well financially, and about 7-8 years ago my father got a letter from the SS administration saying that he has fully paid into his SS. So, in essence what he has paid into SS for the last 8 years he will never see a dime of. His SS check will be the same no matter what. He's basically paying SS taxes so others can collect a check - I guess this is Harlanesque.

See, this is where the subject gets hairy. While you're dad is older and probably planned on getting SS and as such he should get his check every month. However, since I was a youngen I knew that I would never see a time of this, so I think they should start to phase it out so it ends right about the time my generation would start collecting them.

Yes, I'd take one for the team.

[hoosier]

SS was created because most people are too foolish to know how to invest that 6.2%, and create themselves a nice retirement nest egg.

You must have been sleeping during HS history class. SS was created as result of the great depression, as an effort to create an economic safety net in times of economic crisis. It was seen as a way of creating a kinder, gentler form of capitalism that would in turn make socialism less appealing to the middle and lower classes.

In the absence of any really existing threat to capitalism, it's understandable that an increasing number of otherwise thoughtful people no longer understand the concept of a safety net, or perhaps just don't see the need for one. The big bad wolf has gone away, and there's no longer any tangible alternative to capitalism that could put the fear into the upper strata of American society.

[The Leaper]

I understand the option of a safety net...but like all tightrope walkers, I prefer to have the CHOICE of whether or not to use one.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I understand the option of a safety net...but like all tightrope walkers, I prefer to have the CHOICE of whether or not to use one.

Social Security wouldn't work if people could opt out, it would crumble. And many opt-outers would inevitably be left vulnerable (for a variety of reasons, including poor investing, bad health, economic downturns), and they would just become wards of the state anyway.

BTW, Social Security is not just for old people, it also pays out to the disabled.

It's NOT a private option where everyone has a choice, its socialism. We are not a pure capitalist economy, we have a balance of socialism mixed in. There are pluses and minuses to capitalism, pluses and minuses to socialism. Every successful country in the world has a balance of the two.

[Harlan Huckleby]

SS was created because most people are too foolish to know how to invest that 6.2%, and create themselves a nice retirement nest egg. Like Partial I'd rather have that 6.2% to invest on my own, and not collect a SS check. My parents do pretty well financially, and about 7-8 years ago my father got a letter from the SS administration saying that he has fully paid into his SS. So, in essence what he has paid into SS for the last 8 years he will never see a dime of. His SS check will be the same no matter what. He's basically paying SS taxes so others can collect a check - I guess this is Harlanesque.

it sounds like your dad did well financially, and has subsidized others.
And you're right, I don't have any problem with that.

I think what needs to be done is to remove the fiction that social security is a private policy for each person. Social Security should just be funded out of the general treasury, and the social security deduction abolished.

I get where you & Partial are coming from. You think everyone should be responsible for themselves, and it will all turn out better for you. IT undoubtably will be better for you, at least in a narrow sense. But there was experience and wisdom that went into the idea of pooling resources to take care of everyone. There are consequences to letting everyone fend for themselves that you aren't seeing.

[The Leaper]

Social Security wouldn't work if people could opt out, it would crumble.

It is also crumbling when everyone is opted in...so what is your point? So, I'm now paying into a system I will never see a dime from, and taxpayers are still going to have to save a bunch of people who did nothing for retirement but rely on SS.

Socialism is a failure...because greed and power corrupts.