Moktada al-Sadr, Emperor of Iraq

[texaspackerbacker]

No No No, Harlan. If your sources tell you Iran is somehow freer than Egypt and Saudi Arabia, then it is a product of horrible anti-American bias, and by proxy, bias against countries allied with us. I know people from Egypt. The great majority of people there live normal pleasant lives. Ditto that, I'm fairly sure, for Saudi Arabia. BOTH those countries are PRIME TARGETS for the evil forces within Islam to try and tear down the regimes in place--and thus, those regimes take a harsh no nonsense approach toward keeping those enemies at bay. But the good normal people who make up the bulk of the population are NOT the targets--as they most certainly are in the all out TYRANNY which is Iran.

A unified country with autonomous regions is oxymoronic.

Harlan, you are to be applauded for reading a lot. You are to be booed for not taking bias sources with a huge grain of salt. You seem especially prone to taking at face value propaganda of anti-American people and groups.

[Scott Campbell]

I have neighbors that left Iran shortly after the Shaw's departure and Khomeini took over. These folks insist there is very little freedom in Iran today, or they'd be back there. Unlike Iraq, its supposed to be a beautiful country.

[Harlan Huckleby]

No No No, Harlan. If your sources tell you Iran is somehow freer than Egypt and Saudi Arabia, then it is a product of horrible anti-American bias, and by proxy, bias against countries allied with us. I know people from Egypt. The great majority of people there live normal pleasant lives.

I think a lot of people in that region have decent lives - as long as they keep their political views to themselves.

My view of Iran really has nothing to do with anti-American bias, just accounts from visitors. Iran has a much larger middle class than in the Arab countries.

A unified country with autonomous regions is oxymoronic.

I agree it is a little hard to picture. Did you know that the autonomous region of Kurdistan currently forbids the flying of the Iraqi flag on their territory, and forbids the introduction of federal troops on their territory without permission? Yet Kurds also participate in the national army.

It's a dicey situation. But remember how our country started as a loose confederation of states under the Articles of Confederation. Perhaps the new Iraq will start that way, and will voluntarily form tighter integration as trust builds.

[texaspackerbacker]

And remember, the Articles of Confederation didn't work.

Egypt and Saudi Arabia, as I said, are targeted by evil outside forces aiming for regime change to something much more tyrannical and much more belligerent toward civilized neighboring states--yes including, but not limited to Israel.

Iran ALREADY IS that belligerent tyranny radical Muslims would like to turn Egypt and Saudi Arabia into.

The only people in Egypt and Saudi Arabia endangered by the degree of police state are legitimate anti-government terrorists. Conversely, in Iran, the terrorists have the power of government already, and the normal citizens are the ones endangered to the point of disappearing and dying without a trace.

The only possible motive for falsely equating Egypt and Saudi Arabia with Iran is hating Egypt and Saudi Arabia for being allies of America. And no, Harlan, I'm not talking about you. I am talking about your sources, though.

[Harlan Huckleby]

And remember, the Articles of Confederation didn't work.

No. They were the best arrangement that could be achieved politically at the time. They served as a reasonable transitional bandaid until a tighter integration was acceptable to all parties. Iraq is in much the same position.

Iran ALREADY IS that belligerent tyranny radical Muslims would like to turn Egypt and Saudi Arabia into.

We were discussing what it is like to live in these countries. Freedom House does an annual study of political and civil rights in every country. Their scoring is 2 for most free, 14 for most oppressive. Rather than argue blindly, lets see what they say about some representative countries:

Belgium 2
United States 2
France 2
Austrailia 2
Czech Republic 2
Costa Rica 2
Finland 2
Germany 2
Estonia 2
Poland 2
Japan 3
Greece 3
South Korea 3
Belize 3
Israel 3
Mongolia 4
Brazil 4
Croatia 4
Mexico 5
India 5
Albania 6
Turkey 6
Bolivia 6
Guatemala 7
Liberia 7
Georgia 8
Kuwait 8
Nepal 9
Morocco 9
Lebanon 9
Singapore 9
Afghanistan 10
Ethiopia 10
Thailand 10
Bahrain 10
Algeria 11
Belarus 11
Russia 11
Syria 11
Egypt 11
Pakistan 11
China 11
Vietnam 12
Cameroon 12
Iraq 12
Iran 12
Saudi Arabia 13
Syria 13
Cuba 14
Burma 14
North Korea 14
Lybia 14
Turkmenistan 14

Egypt, Iran and Saudi Arabia are grouped near the bottom in that order. So not much separates them. I was wrong too, I would have expected Iran to score a little better.

The only possible motive for falsely equating Egypt and Saudi Arabia with Iran is hating Egypt and Saudi Arabia for being allies of America.

We could find other independent evaluations, but Freedom House is well respected. As is so often the case, your views are based mostly on ideology.

https://www.freedomhouse.org

[Harlan Huckleby]

Very positive development

Sunnis Agree to End Boycott, Rejoin Iraq Government
BAGHDAD — Iraq’s largest Sunni bloc has agreed to return to Prime Minister Nuri Kamal al-Maliki’s cabinet after a nine-month boycott, several Sunni leaders said on Thursday, citing a recently passed amnesty law and the Maliki government’s crackdown on Shiite militias as reasons for the move

[texaspackerbacker]

I know nothing about "Freedom House", but I'll take your word for it that they are well respected.

Just the same, freedom, however it may be defined, is only part of the picture. The other is the where the country stands in the worldwide good versus evil picture--either on the side of civility, compassion, and culture, or against it.

I think it's indisputable that Egypt and Saudi Arabia are at least marginally on the right side, while Iran is blatantly on the wrong side.

Still another factor is the capacity to do harm. And there too, Iran is grossly more in position to perpetrate serious bad acts than the other two.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I think it's indisputable that Egypt and Saudi Arabia are at least marginally on the right side, while Iran is blatantly on the wrong side.

Ya, Egypt and Saudia Arabia are our allies in some situations, and Iran is a negative force in Iraq & Lebanon. But look at the support of Saudi Arabia of all the madrassis around region. With friends like that....

We SHOULD have been treating Iran like China or Pakistan. They can be situational allies, as they were against the Taliban in Afghanistan. In particular, they are an obvious tactical ally in struggle against Al-Qaida.

Bush's demonization of Iran has been disasterous. It is so obvious that it is not debatable. It has cost us a couple thousand American lives in Iraq. By taking a "you're next" stance, we guaranteed that Iran would fervently support the insurgency against us in Iraq. And we are not superior to Iran in this context! They have many advantages as next door neighbors in projecting power and influence into the fray.

With an improving situation in Iraq and a drawdown in troops, I expect tensions between Iran & U.S. will ease in next administration. I don't doubt that they are our enemy now. But I think the end result in Iraq will be a democracy with a heavy Shiite flavor in the South, a result that both Iran & U.S. can live with.

[texaspackerbacker]

Bush demonizes Iran because Iran is demonic. It's as simple as that. Obama is an extremist of the left and horribly naive because he, like you, apparently, Harlan, believes otherwise. Would you actually put the fox in charge of the hen house by letting the abject EVIL which is the leadership of Iran dominate Iraq?

Saudi Arabia--the House of Saud--is almost continuously in survival mode. That is the reason for support of the madrasas, etc. They have SO-O-O much money that they can certainly afford to spend it, and they basically try to cover all the bases by throwing some money in the bad guys' direction. And can you honestly blame them, considering the attitude of the American left, both politicians and media, who would be so bonehead stupid as to hang the Saudis out to dry and let the forces of evil get control of the world's largest supply of oil.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Would you actually put the fox in charge of the hen house by letting the abject EVIL which is the leadership of Iran dominate Iraq?

Is or is not Iraq a sovereign nation? I thought we were promoting a democracy, not a puppet state of the United States. They make their own choices. A Shiite goverment won elections, we should not be surprised that they want to have cozy relations with IRan.

[texaspackerbacker]

That is not the issue at all. The issue is Iranian military hegemony over Iraq--which is exactly what would happen if we cut and ran/withdrew prematurely.

Didn't you say yourself, we had "no choice" but to let Iran dominate what you called Shi'istan--southern Iraq? Maybe it was Tyrone or somebody else.

It ain't letting democracy happen if you throw them under the bus of Iranian domination.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Iran is not going to dominate or threaten Iraq militarily. They fought a long war with Iraq, and you can't blame them for wanting a government next door that is friendly towards them.

And BTW, many of today's Iraqi leaders spent many years in exile in Iran. Some fought with Iran against Sadam Hussein. They have warm relations with the Iranian people. The Iranian people make regular trips to Shitte holy sites in Iraq. Sistani, our favorite cleric in Iraq, was born in Iran and is said to speak with an Iranian accent. A country is more than their government.

And the senior Iranian Clerics that hold power are not admired or liked by the Iraqis. They aren't admired or liked by the Iranians, for that matter. The Iraqis seem to have decided they don't want to repeat the Iranian theocratic model, even if a lot Islamic law is part of the legal system in the south.

The U.S. and Iran ultimately share a joint interest in peace & stability in Iraq. I think Iran is a country that we will achieve a detente with in time.

[texaspackerbacker]

Harlan, you continue to perpetuate the ILLUSION that the leadership of Iran is rational, sane, maybe even altruistic. They simply aren't. They are tyrannical theocrats who keep their own people in bondage, and thirst for power over Iraq as well.

Hell yeah, they fought a war with Iraq--ten years long, with no decision. They don't want a "friendly government" next door. They want a client state.

Grand Ayatollah Sistani, who has done so much for sanity, unity, and an enlightened pro-American outlook in Iraq, left Iran over 50 years ago. If he has any ethnic loyalty in that direction at all, it certainly doesn't extend to the abominable regime there now.

You are correct that both Iraqis and the Iranian people detest the theocratic tyranny in Iran. What you don't seem to be able to grasp, however, is that just as those Iranian people have little or no hope of throwing off the yoke of that regime, neither would the Iraqi people be able to prevent having themselves dominated and tyrannized in the same way by the same evildoers, if the American left gets its way and pulls our troops out of Iraq prematurely.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I never hinted that Iran's government is altruistic, you made that up.

The government in Iran is no more tyranical than most other countries in the region - Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Pakistan, etc

I do understand the rationale for treating Iran like an evil foe. The Bush administration's policy has been a self-fulfilling prophecy, and they are certainly opposing us now.

There are more productive ways of dealing with Iran. The belligerent approach has been disasterous. We are virtually alone in the world in this stance, and we have only strengthed the hand of hardliners. We should seek relations with Iran similar to those we have with China or Pakistan, crappy governments that we nevertheless sometimes find common cause with.

[texaspackerbacker]

Harlan, do you have Iranian relatives or what? Why are you so blind to the fact that Iran is an ENEMY COUNTRY--by Iran's choice--which is doing everything it can to become a nuclear enemy country? It can't be that you have relatives there, or you would realize how horribly tyrannical the Iranian regime is to its own people.

You keep trying to play the old liberal game of moral equivalence--in this case, Iran to friendly pro-American regimes in Pakistan, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia, which while not perfect models of democracy and freedom, are certainly less hostile to the vast majority of their people than the tyranny which is Iran.