Iraq War Costs hit home

[The Leaper]

But the fact that a number of terror plots have been stopped or uncovered counters your 9-10-01 assertion.

I'm not sure uncovering a few terror plots proves that we are safer now than we were 7 years ago. IMO, the number of terrorist plots have greatly increased...so the likelihood of catching some of them will also increase. We've seen plenty of other successful terror attacks around the world as well since 9-11, although none on our soil.

Recently, we've seen bomb materials sit in a van outside of the Capitol in DC for months before they were detected. We've seen numerous security tests sneak questionable items through airport security with ease. Security at our ports is virtually non-existant. I'm not exactly enamored with our national security.

Just because something hasn't happened is not a sign that we are safer.

[red]

all it takes is one nut, from anywhere to finally snap and we have terrorist attack

it could be two white guys from michigan blowing up a federal building or a kid going nuts in high school and showing up to shoot the place up.

or some religious extremes to hijack some planes

we can maybe stop some big attacks

but its the little sudden ones that really scare me

the big ones are probably going to hit something that doesn't directly effect me, like 911. i didn't know anyone that was there, i don't even know anyone from NYC. however one of those little ones could happen right outside and effect me or someone i know

and we can't do a whole lot to prevent the little ones

[Freak Out]

blah blah blah

A fine example of a typical falco post. Notice the attempt at disdain using the repetition of one-syllable words that he learned as a toddler.

Somebody's got his grumpy pants on today!

It said about as much as you did as to why we went into Iraq and destroyed the treasury Kiwon. Has the Iraqi invasion stopped the attacks on Israel by the crazy Amish? Has it silenced the extremist Islamic rabble rousers? Has it stopped Iran from attempting to advance their nuclear programs?

[oregonpackfan]

[quote="Harlan Huckleby"]

What a waste that war was

You keep mentioning the past, even going back to the completely different situation in Vietnam. These are irrelevant points. You are just introducing emotion to cloud or avoid evaluating the facts we face today.

Harlan,

I do mention the past because of the statement "Those who do not learn the lessons of history are condemned to repeat them."

Though there certainly are differences between the wars in Vietnam and Iraq, there are many similarities. Our country appears to not have learned the mistakes we made in Vietnam.

Some of the mistakes include:

1. Believing in deceptive statments from our leaders. As I mentioned earlier, our leaders during the Vietnam era based justification of the Vietnam to prevent the domino theory of communism. If we did not stop the communists in Vietnam, that movement would spread across the Pacific to our Western Coast. It never happened after we finally pulled out.

In August of '64, our leaders reported on the Gulf of Tonkin incident where North Vietnamese PT-style boats attacked American ships for two days. That led to major escalation of American troops to the level of 500,000 in Vietnam. Only years later we discovered that attack NEVER happened! It was a pure fabrication by our American leaders, both civilian and military.

For the Iraq War, the deceptions from our leaders are almost too numerous to list. Saddam Hussain/Iraq was not involved in the 9/11 attack in any way, shape, or form. None of those 19 terrorists who hijacked those 4 planes were from Iraq. Hussain was not allied with al Qaida. Prior to the American invasion, there was no al Qaida in Iraq.

Despite the constant accusations from the Bush administration, there was no credible evidence Hussain had weapons of mass destruction which were a threat to the security of the United States. In addition, there was no evidence Hussain was importing weapons grade uranium from Niger. When Ambassador Joe Wilson refused to falsely report that Niger was exporting uranium to Iraq, the Bush administration outed his wife, Valerie Plame, as an undercover CIA agent.

Up until late 2007, Bush repeatedly claimed that Iran was using its nuclear power program for nuclear weapons. The National Intelligence Estimate, a report from 16 American intelligence agencies, disputed that stance. It reported Iran ENDED that program in 2003.

Bush is continuing his verbal saber--rattling against Iran. How can Americans trust anything he states about the Middle East. His credibility is highly suspect.

2. A warped, intolerant view of American patriotism. In both war eras, the pro-war supporters claimed the only way to be a patriotic American was to support the war effort. It made no matter whether the wars are legally or morally justified. Despite the fact that an essential component of democracy is the ability to dissent, opponents of the war years ago were labeled "communist sympathizers" while today opponents are labeled as "Aiding the terrorists."

3. Indifference to the civilian deaths. In Vietnam, up to 1 million Vietnamese civilians were killed during that war. Estimates for Iraqi civilian deaths range from 30,000 to 600,000. Certainly most of those deaths were unintentional. Disturbingly, a number of Americans have just shrugged off those civilian deaths as Vietnamese "gooks" or Iraqi "ragheads."

4. Rise of the influence of the "Military Industrial Complex" where private business companies encourage American involvement in warfare so they can reap huge profits. The phrase "Military Industrial Complex" was not coined by some radical, left-winger. It was used by Dwight Eisenhower, a general, Normandy Invasion Commander, President, and a REPUBLICAN, in his departing speech in 1961.

In Vietnam, private companies like Dow Chemical, General Electric, and General Dynamics made huge profits. For the Iraq War, private companies with close ties to the Republic party continue to make huge gains like Haliburton(where Dick Cheney was the former CEO), Blackwater USA, Kellogg, Brown & Root, and Bechtel.

5. Viewpoint that in order for Americans to have freedom, we have to continually engage in warfare. Those who claim "Freedom is not free" often use this argument.

So yes, these are points why I bring up the past of Vietnam and compare it to our current conflict in Iraq. As a patriotic American, I do not want our country to repeat some of the same mistakes we have made in the past.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Hmm....I wonder how many mosques, Islamic schools and madrasahs the government can build for $700 million in Washington County, Oregon?

Here's a guy that will gladly help with the planning:

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1739.htm

Ah yes, Kiwon. Get the politics of fear rolling.

If America does not "win" the war in Iraq, swarms of al-Qaida will come streaming into our country and destroying the very country we love.

Well, at least I'm glad to hear that you "love" the country.

Politics of fear? How about the politics of reality?

Iran claims to have 6,000 new centrifuges in defiance of the international community, Pro-western Bhutto is assassinated in Pakistan, Israel is under daily attack. Gee, what's to be fearful of? Everybody knows that the Amish were behind 9/11, not 19 Arab Wahhabi Muslims that were organized, funded and sent by Al-Qaida to the USA to train and practice for specific suicide missions. Those sneaky Amish!

Let's do some math. Add these figures:

1993 ........... 1,213
1994 ......... 1,075
1995 .......... 1,040
1996 ........... 974
1997 .......... 817
1998 .......... 826
1999 .......... 795
2000 ......... 774

What'd you come up with? I got 7,514. That's 7,514 military deaths during the 8 years of the Clinton administration. But you already knew this, right?

You're worried about money? How about this article: Divorce, unwed parenting costing taxpayers

Divorce and out-of-wedlock childbearing cost U.S. taxpayers more than $112 billion a year, according to a study commissioned by four groups advocating more government action to bolster marriages.

The $112 billion estimate includes the cost of federal, state and local government programs, and lost tax revenue at all levels of government.

Now I hope that you are an activist for marriage and abstinence and adoption so that U.S. taxpayers can save some money. The $450 that Planned Parenthood charges for an abortion may look like the easy way out but really isn't the best solution.

I guess you're in Jimmy Carter's camp. The imam in the above video link in his sermon from last Friday is also a Hamas government official. Jimmy Carter, the Christian infidel, is going to ask this guy, nicely, if he would like to live in peace with Israelis whom Palestinians teach their children to consider as half-breed dogs and encourage them to kill as suicide bombers.

Gee, I wonder what his response will be?

Who's living in reality and who's not?

Military deaths. Oh, lord. Don't bother breaking them down into those related to combat.

1) Are these figures from battles?
or 2) During some peacekeeping mission for UN?
Or 3) Something else


BTW, nice of you to leave out those injured in combat. We wouldn't want those to count would we.

Bhutto: Um, which Paki gov't that has really done nothing has the U.S. supported. Oops.

Isreal: What is your point. Israel has been under daily attack throughout all U.S. presidencies.

Hamas: LOL. Who exactly rushed the lebanese to have free elections despite Fatah begging the U.S. not to do it..that they weren't ready. One man..prez bush. You don't like freely elected leaders now? You reap what you sow buddy.

[Gunakor]

Even more ridiculous is the comparison being made by a different poster between the length of the current conflict and the length of hostilities in WWII. That's not apples and oranges---it's apples and lampshades.

Why on earth would it take longer to defeat Iraqi militias than it took to defeat the Nazi regime? Certainly the Nazis were far superior both in technology and training than the Iraqi militias. Yet we were able to crush them in 6 years, and are struggling against Iraqis. Why?

The point is we have to END this war. More Americans have lost thier lives in the course of this war than there were who lost thier lives to start this war. Any speculation as to what would have happened if the Dems were in charge is just that - speculation. Nobody knows for sure. But I can assume that the death toll for Americans would be substantially less had this war not been drug out 6+ years, and am certain that the Dems would not have let that happen.

Now we remain in Iraq to defend... Iraqis? Americans GI's are still losing thier lives and it's not even to defend America anymore. America is trying to bully other countries into adopting our form of democracy, and American GI's are paying for it with thier lives. Who are we to tell other countries how to govern themselves? If the Iraqis wanted democracy so badly, they'd have stood up for themselves and revolted and paid for that revolution with thier own lives. Why should the liberation of Iraq be paid for in American lives? IT'S NOT OUR PROBLEM!!!

America is a free democratic nation, and I thought our military was to protect US from any other country forcing thier way of life on us. Now it seems our military is being ordered to force our way of life on other countries. Hypocritical.

How would you like it if another nation came and occupied the United States and FORCED thier system of government on us? You'd be fighting it tooth and nail, same as the Iraqis are. You'd continue fighting it for as long as you had breath, same as I expect the Iraqis to do. This is an endless war. Iraqis are fighting us because they do not want us in THIER country, and really we have no right to be there. Iraq never has been and never will be America.

F*ck it, let the militias run things. Let Iran invade and occupy Iraq now that Saddam is gone. Let that country turn to shit, I don't care. Keep our eyes turned there, and if they make any threatening moves twoard OUR country THEN we act. Let the Iraqi Liberation be paid for in Iraqi life. Defend OUR borders, not somebody else's.

[oregonpackfan]

How would you like it if another nation came and occupied the United States and FORCED thier system of government on us? You'd be fighting it tooth and nail, same as the Iraqis are.

[/quote]

Excellent point, Gunakor,

I think too many Americans forget that our ancestors, the American Colonists, did not like being invaded, occupied, and ruled by the strongest country in the world--England!

For that era, England had the strongest navy in the world and the strongest army in the world. Have Americans forgotten who won the Revolutionary War?

[Harlan Huckleby]

So yes, these are points why I bring up the past of Vietnam and compare it to our current conflict in Iraq.

none of your bullet points give us any guidance as to how we should proceed. You aren't addressing the thorny mess, other than to conclude that we get out.

Richard Lugar is trying to focus on reality:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/11/AR2008041103249.html

[Harlan Huckleby]

Why on earth would it take longer to defeat Iraqi militias than it took to defeat the Nazi regime? Certainly the Nazis were far superior both in technology and training than the Iraqi militias. Yet we were able to crush them in 6 years, and are struggling against Iraqis. Why? .

insurgencies are a different animal. It takes 10 years to crush an insurgency. We need to get Iraq able to deal with its own insurgency.

But layered on top of this are about 3 or 4 civil wars. We are looking to diffuse those thru political compromise.

There's been progress. Another factor to consider is that by the time the next pres gets in there, we'll have a better idea if the situation is salvagable.

[Harlan Huckleby]

For that era, England had the strongest navy in the world and the strongest army in the world. Have Americans forgotten who won the Revolutionary War?

We are fighting a limited slice of the population. We already have al-Qaida on the run, have earned some trust of Sunni population, and the Sunni Insurgency is tamped down 75%. That's a lot.

This Sadir guy seems menacing. We'll know more about his future next fall, if/when his faction competes in provincial elections. The Southern half of Iraq is destined to be an autonimous region heavily influenced by Iran. Maybe Sadir wants a piece of the corruption chain there. He's the puzzle piece to be solved. Maybe he will fit-in ok, or maybe he needs to be crushed.

[Gunakor]

Why on earth would it take longer to defeat Iraqi militias than it took to defeat the Nazi regime? Certainly the Nazis were far superior both in technology and training than the Iraqi militias. Yet we were able to crush them in 6 years, and are struggling against Iraqis. Why? .

insurgencies are a different animal. It takes 10 years to crush an insurgency. We need to get Iraq able to deal with its own insurgency.

But layered on top of this are about 3 or 4 civil wars. We are looking to diffuse those thru political compromise.

There's been progress. Another factor to consider is that by the time the next pres gets in there, we'll have a better idea if the situation is salvagable.

Who cares if it's salvageable or not? It's not our problem. It's not our war, or at least it doesn't need to be. Let the Iraqis deal with the insurgency without sending Americans to die alongside them. If Democratic Iraq falls to the insurgency then Iraq will be a dictatorship once again. I don't see how even that would be a problem for Americans. For all of the years Iraq was under Hussein's dictatorship, they never posed any threat to the American homeland. The only Americans who have ever died as a result of Iraqi conflict have done so in the middle east. I could care less whether or not the middle east is stable, or democratic, or free.

I'd keep my satellites pointed in thier direction to keep an eye on what is going on there, but I'd be watching from the western hemisphere. If they started to make aggresive moves twoard America or it's european allies then I'd consider military action. If they are only aggressively fighting amongst themselves then whatever, let them kill themselves off. It isn't going to make my life any more difficult.

I guess, in the end, I simply would not commit to war and put American lives on the line unless it were absolutely 100% essential to defending our own borders and our own people. Which is why I was an avid supporter of the war against Al Queida, but not so much in the war in Iraq. I don't see how fighting the Iraqi insurgency is helping to protect U.S. borders or U.S. citizens. It's all about protecting Iraqis at this point.

[texaspackerbacker]

Freedom isn't free. I would pay that money 100x over if it keeps my family from being blown up by the crazies.

The problem is that we are paying that 100x over, but this nation is no more secure today than it was on 9-10-01. The border security is a joke, and people continue to sneak crazy stuff on airplanes with ease.

It's simply NOT true that the nation is no more secure than 9/10/01 or whatever.

Do you think it is LUCK that we haven't been hit with a repeat of 9/11?

Sure, spread the credit around--enhanced security at home, surveillance and monitoring of terrorist communications, strict handling and harsh interrogation of terrorist prisoners, etc. (ALL of which also was opposed by the Dem/libs), but don't leave out the KEY PIECE OF THE PUZZLE.

Why do you think our troops are so overwhelmingly supportive of administration policies on the war, even though they are the ones with the most to lose--potentially their lives? Because they KNOW that their service and sacrifice in Iraq and Afghanistan is directly LINKED to preventing terrorism at home. Never mind all the lame arguments about no WMDs, Saddam not being complicit with al Qaeda, etc. Even if true--and that is FAR from a sure thing, it does NOT diminish the fact that the war--specifically, al Qaeda's commitment there--has contributed significantly to the prevention of mass murder of Americans at home. How can people deny this? More importantly, how can people ridicule or deny the importance of this? How could ANYTHING be more important than saving the lives of large numbers of Americans, as well as our way of life--our freedoms, our comforts, etc., ALL of which would be severely jeopardized by repeats of 9/11?

This thread is about cost in the financial sense. Well, all the cost of the war so far have NOT reached the amount of the economic hit from 9/11 alone. And some people claim the war cost isn't justified by preventing repeats of that?

[Freak Out]

For that era, England had the strongest navy in the world and the strongest army in the world. Have Americans forgotten who won the Revolutionary War?

We are fighting a limited slice of the population. We already have al-Qaida on the run, have earned some trust of Sunni population, and the Sunni Insurgency is tamped down 75%. That's a lot.

This Sadir guy seems menacing. We'll know more about his future next fall, if/when his faction competes in provincial elections. The Southern half of Iraq is destined to be an autonimous region heavily influenced by Iran. Maybe Sadir wants a piece of the corruption chain there. He's the puzzle piece to be solved. Maybe he will fit-in ok, or maybe he needs to be crushed.

The Sunni leaders put away their guns for the time being for a number of reasons...a big one is $$.

Sadr's organization is the LARGEST distributor of aid in Iraq. If we along with the Iraqi government take him out we better damn well be ready to step in....and were not.

[Harlan Huckleby]

The Sunni leaders put away their guns for the time being for a number of reasons...a big one is $$.

they are being paid to act as local security forces. I se -e that as a good step.

Sadr's organization is the LARGEST distributor of aid in Iraq. If we along with the Iraqi government take him out we better damn well be ready to step in....and were not.

I just remember a factoid. Sadir had control of Health ministry for a while. And his allies still control operationof most hospitals.
Sadir's organization is like Hezbollah in Lebanon. That is not necessarily terrible, but his group can't remain a seperate government.

Sadir is the hard part. I'm willing to wait awhile and see if his faction can be reconciled with rest of Shitte.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Who cares if it's salvageable or not? It's not our problem. It's not our war, or at least it doesn't need to be. Let the Iraqis deal with the insurgency without sending Americans to die alongside them.

this is not like vietnam where we were able to walk away and make a clean break. There was a lot of hell in Cambodia & Vietnam after '75 that we did not pay a price for.

Iraq is TOTALLY different. A war could spread and affect world economy. And we will be blamed for the consequences, rightfully so. And it will be on TV this time.