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  • #46
    Originally posted by mraynrand
    Originally posted by Tyrone Bigguns
    Really is no point arguing with someone about this, especially someone that apparently thinks Ayn Rand is a great thinker.
    Interesting that you bail out of a debate with a parting shot at a great thinker. I often wonder how different people come to like or dislike Rand. I understand the position of those who find Rand (as a person) somewhat distasteful. She had incredible scorn and anger for the poor in spirit and for those who 'contributed little' to society. It was a failing of hers. But she was a philosopher and many philosophers throughout history have been somewhat detatched from the real world. Also, pure philosophy requires an abstract treatment of reality which overlooks human 'messiness' And since Rand promoted rationalism, and very few (if any) people are capable of being totally rational, her philosophy can't apply perfectly in the real world.

    However, if you have read her work on epistemology and metaphysics, you will find it very clear and logical. Figuring out how humans perceive the world around them and form concepts and ideas is the basis of all philosophy and has repercussions throughout our world. Her simple concept that "existence is primary" serves as a counter the Descarte's "I think therefore I am." You might want to answer this question: Which side of this argument do you think radical Islam falls on and what effect does that have on their society? What do most Americans think about their existence, and how does it affect our society?
    Puhleeze. I remember when i was in my twenties and had to listen to deluded youngsters talk about her. That is a joke. She is hardly considered to be one of the great thinkers of our time.

    As for her philosophy, most intellectuals are open to submit their work to their peers and let them ask questions. Not so with Rand. Her attitude is summed up in her own quote, "I am not looking for intelligent disagreement any longer.... What I am looking for is intelligent agreement."

    Rand is probably one of the first philosophical writers many high school students would have encountered in their studies, during the last several decades. It is on the young, philosophically untrained mind, that her prose has the most sway; and once swayed, it is very hard to overcome her misperceptions, bitterness, and straw arguments. Lucky me, I encountered real philosophers before I ever heard her name, and so I could easily
    dismiss her claptrap, and especially Piekoff's, as inconsistent, irrational, and preachy.

    She preaches a Howard Roark, but delivers a Gail Wynand and a Peter Toohey. Her thought implicitly leads to the same uniformity of thinking and
    living which she so ardently opposed, and that is due to the very basic assumptions with which she works.

    For one example, if the senses are to be taken as necessarily valid, and if it is assumed that the senses perceive "facts," then there is hardly much room left for any type of creativity, or even slight difference of perception and opinion, is there? Each moment of perception from each person would be bound to the same truth, governed by a strict determinism, and no one would be capable of the least bit of freedom. There would not be the very possibility of an individual, to experience freedom in the first place.

    Her thought boils down to a very clever type of religion, or pseudo-philosophy cult, in that it preys upon the unsuspecting mind and feeds it with lots of "newspeak" about individuality, honesty, consistency and happiness, when on closer inspection, it leads to the same totalitarianism, mysticism, and blind faith which it claims to avoid.

    As for your existence point: She and Piekoff claim if one were to be rational, and honest, then one would have to take as granted that the fundamental edifice of Objectivism is the fact that existence exists. They further argue, if one were to deny this claim, then one is being irrational and dishonest, since it is a self-evident truth. This is a laugher.

    First, I must refute "existence exists," and refute that one would be irrational to deny a fundamental tenet, qua tenet, since a tenet is not
    an axiom. Then we should provide offensives against repetition, by challenging the value of such an edifice, in light of the very aims of Objectivism, and by turning the moralizing table on the Randists, by questioning the name calling function of "irrational and dishonest."

    You see, the fact that you or I may need a complex system, is no indication of its universality to all humans, or that it should be applied in the same manner. This is one of my beefs with Randism; that once she set up the universal need for a system, it is all too easy to start dictating the characteristics of that system. From there, it is a skinny step to totalitarianism, or some kind of ethically justified power technique. This is in direct conflict with individualism, of which Rand claimed to be in support.

    Couple of easy (way to easy points) about Objectivism.

    There is no flaw in the fundamental principles of Objectivism,
    but there is a very great flaw in some of Ayn Rand's applications and
    interpretations of the fundamental principles of the Objectivist ethics.
    This flaw is based on Rand's seeming inability to separate philosophy
    from psychology, and her insistence on making unrealistic and
    inappropriate moral judgments about other people. She makes claims
    about human psychology that are never proved or defended. The claims
    are simply asserted as self-evident philosophical truths.

    These claims fall into 3 main areas:
    1.Inherently dishonest ideas
    2. Evasion
    3. Evil

    W/o going into each, The concepts of 'evil,' 'evasion,' and 'inherently dishonest ideas' are psychological concepts that do not belong in philosophy. These concepts merely serve to give Objectivists unrestricted license to morally condemn other human beings. As a result, Objectivists end up treating their intellectual opponents (and each other) as people who can be despised and hated. This is what has torn the Objectivist movement apart for the last thirty years, and will continue to do so. The players change, but the game remains the same.

    The power of moral judgment is enormous. The power to pronounce
    someone as an evil evader is the greatest power of all. By making such
    power available, subject only to whim, with no objective facts or principles to restrain it, Ayn Rand has unleashed a reign of intellectual terrorism. She has transformed many honest, well-meaning individuals into unjust dogmatic moralizers.

    This propensity to engage in unjust moral condemnation is also what
    keeps Objectivism a tiny, insignificant intellectual movement that has all
    the appearance of a religious cult, and is seldom taken seriously in the
    academic world.

    Moral judgment of others is quite different from personal moral judgment. Unlike the contents of your own mind, the thoughts, reasoning, and volitional processes of other men are not available to you. Any attempt to morally judge someone else that depends on knowing the contents of his mind, will never be anything more than a guessing game. And it's an unjust game, guaranteed to alienate everyone in your sphere of influence.

    Moral judgment that requires us to determine the mental state of another
    man, is worthless. Ever since Rand proposed this impossible standard,
    Objectivists have been scrambling to find ways to implement it. Their method...guessing.

    Any proper moral judgment of other men must rely on facts that are readily available to anyone; not facts that only a trained psychiatrist could hope to obtain. What are the facts that can be used for moral judgment?

    Ayn Rand wrote that, "Morality is a code of values to guide man's choices and actions, that determine the purpose and the course of his life." Accordingly, judging the morality of others requires that we judge how well they are adhering to a code of rational values, rather than trying to discern the actual motivations of another man's mind (as Rand and Peikoff would have us do).

    Judgments are not always easy to make, and they can never be made quickly, but none of them requires us to determine if a man is 'evading,' or is advocating an 'inherently dishonest idea,' or is 'evil.' To try to answer any of these last three questions, is to push moral judgment into the realm of unjust fantasy.

    How much more would you like me to go on about the ridiculousness of her philosophy. Sanctioning!!! LOL

    She is a second rate thinker, a writer of pulp-fiction sensibilities with a knack for euphemizing greed in a spirit of self-help profundity.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Tyrone Bigguns
      As for her philosophy, most intellectuals are open to submit their work to their peers and let them ask questions. Not so with Rand. Her attitude is summed up in her own quote, "I am not looking for intelligent disagreement any longer.... What I am looking for is intelligent agreement."
      This is untrue. There are published works with the texts of Rand answering questions and challenges from peers. As I said above, Rand had personal inconsistencies, and her philosophy can be challenged (and your discourse outlines some of the typical challenges)

      About "Existence exists" - How do you define axiom and tenet and how do you apply each to the fact of existence? If existence exists is an axiom and not a tenet, does that change things? Does existence require thought?

      About your idea that eliminating differences in perception would lead to determinism - that's an interesting view. I think you may be right, but only if people acted completely rational in response to objective reality. Humans aren't machines (a point that Rand seemed to believe and reject all at the same time - another huge problem in her philosophy - Roark and Galt were rational machine/humans, but others were irrational to varying degrees), and therefore some humans will reject objective reality or color it with their own experiences. That's easily explained by the fact that each person has a different experiential background and also experiences stochastic processes in brain function. But that variability still doesn't refute that there is an objective reality, only that it can be perceived differently.

      I'm not a philospher by trade, so I don't have all the jargon down. I thought Kant was God's punishment for learning how to read, and I reject the idea that a good act is only good if a person gets no benefit from it.

      I maintain that my point is still valid - that Rand was a great thinker. I don't know if she was a great philosopher - perhaps in that field she might be more middle of the road. But I think her writing and philosophy is more logical and sensical than say Richard Rorty or John Rawls. And on a completely personal level, I liked reading her novels. That may just be my personal opinion, but I thought they were interesting and well-written - the works of a talented mind, despite the problems with her philosophy.

      It was interesting to read what you thought about Rand. I've read some of the objections to her work before, and I find it interesting to see other perspectives. But if you really want to have a discussion, you might want to leave out the latin - I can never follow that "qua non qua" stuff! But, when I have some time, I'll try to answer a few of your deeper questions about the primacy of existence.
      "Never, never ever support a punk like mraynrand. Rather be as I am and feel real sympathy for his sickness." - Woodbuck

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      • #48
        I thought Kant was God's punishment for learning how to read,
        Hilarious. (Yet true...)
        "Greatness is not an act... but a habit.Greatness is not an act... but a habit." -Greg Jennings

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Tyrone Bigguns

          There is no flaw in the fundamental principles of Objectivism,
          but there is a very great flaw in some of Ayn Rand's applications and
          interpretations of the fundamental principles of the Objectivist ethics.
          By the way, I forgot to comment on this - I completely agree. I might want to split hairs on some of the items you wrote below, but it is in APPLICATION of objectivism that the philosophy suffers it's greatest defeats, and many of these problems Rand introduced have not been answered.

          Again, great post. i enjoyed reading it.
          "Never, never ever support a punk like mraynrand. Rather be as I am and feel real sympathy for his sickness." - Woodbuck

          Comment


          • #50
            Stock up on gasoline now. A tropical storm is heading towards Florida. Gas Prices should start rising any day now.

            Well at least bush, rice and cheney will be happy about the higher oil profits.
            Stacy is just one of the elfs.

            Comment


            • #51
              Florida mocks tropical storms. All they do for a ts is throw the lawn furniture in the pool and pull the trash cans in.
              "Greatness is not an act... but a habit.Greatness is not an act... but a habit." -Greg Jennings

              Comment

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