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**Tyrone Bigguns** · 04-26-2006, 12:10 PM

Originally posted by No Mo Moss

I think the cure have a much better career of music then DM. DM had three great albums and some hits in between. Wish represented a resurgence by the Cure in the early 90's and succeeded greatly. I was only in 8th grade when that came out but I started listening when I was twelve.

I think one of the reasons I like U2 so much is that they are really pretty good at re-inventing themselves. Some of their best stuff comes after they become stale. Zooropa is my favorite. I liked their last album, but think their next wil either be great or be terrible.

I like Wilco, too bad they didn't show. Speaking of death cab, I love the first postal service album, hopefully they can recreate that on a second.

I think that your perspective on DM reflects your age (i'm a bit older and lived thru the 80s). DM was HUGE and was/is bigger than the Cure. Total sales double the Cure. By 88 they sold out Rose Bowl, the highest figure in 8 years. Tour was documented by DA Pennebaker and later was a best seller as 101.

They had already released a comp of singles by 85. They have had numerous tribute/cover CDs.

Not to mention spawning all of Vince Clarke's side projects (Yaz, the assembly, Erasure). And the huge influence on Techno.

**No Mo Moss** · 04-26-2006, 12:38 PM

Yeah, I have 101 and have read a few biography's of the band. I've seen them live a few times too, great show. I still think they only had 4 (not three) great albums, not counting 101.

Black celebration, Music for the Masses, Violater, Some great reward. But like I said before the stuff they put out lately hasn't been very good. Exciter had a few good songs as did Ultra, but compared with their old stuff it isn't even close. Their latest wasn't very good.

The Cure has some similarities. I think they also helped usher in a gothic idustrial sound. A lot of parralells, yes though DM is the bigger group, perhaps better.

**Tyrone Bigguns** · 04-26-2006, 05:02 PM

Originally posted by No Mo Moss

Yeah, I have 101 and have read a few biography's of the band. I've seen them live a few times too, great show. I still think they only had 4 (not three) great albums, not counting 101.

Black celebration, Music for the Masses, Violater, Some great reward. But like I said before the stuff they put out lately hasn't been very good. Exciter had a few good songs as did Ultra, but compared with their old stuff it isn't even close. Their latest wasn't very good.

The Cure has some similarities. I think they also helped usher in a gothic idustrial sound. A lot of parralells, yes though DM is the bigger group, perhaps better.

No Mo: very reasonable attitude. By the early 90s I was kinda over them. I really liked the early 80s singles and Speak & Spell is just a classic of simple electronica.

I agree with you on new DM. It just sounds the same to me. They do it well, but I could care less now. I would say it is like the Rolling Stones. At a certain point you just don't need anymore new stuff. The Stones haven't done anything new since late 70s.

Live show: Agreed. And much better than the Cure. This is coming from a fan of the Cure. To me, A Night Like This and In Between Days are the height of the band. I like the more gothic sound, Charlotte Sometimes, etc.

Though, I wouldn't really put them as major innovators of gothic. Certainly not in the pantheon groups: Joy Division, Bauhaus (Tones, Love&Rockets), Mission, Sisters, Siouxsie, etc. They are more gothic lite.

It is hard to sustain interest in a band for a long time. Same for REM and U2. It is really hard when it is just you and the select few listening, then they move to stadiums. U2: I like the singles i hear, but I haven't had a burning urge to buy anything since the Joshua Tree.

Anyway, it is good to chat with someone who is into music, listening to current new stuff and revisiting the old.

**jack's smirking revenge** · 04-26-2006, 05:17 PM

Originally posted by Tyrone Bigguns

Originally posted by No Mo Moss

Anyway, it is good to chat with someone who is into music, listening to current new stuff and revisiting the old.

All due respect Tyrone, but I think you've turned some people off from talking music with you when you called some our favorite stuff "trite and pablum". I know I'm pretty much done with this thread. I wasn't offended, just knew the conversation was over.

I'm into lots of music. I listen to new stuff and revisit the old. Just not in your genre. Music is my life as the manager of a rock band and with being connected to both mainstream, indie and local music. But you can't call someone else's music trash and think you're sitting on a heap of treasure. It just doesn't work that way.

Those are my two cents. Carry on with your music chat.

tyler

**Tyrone Bigguns** · 04-26-2006, 09:37 PM

Originally posted by jacks smirking revenge

Originally posted by Tyrone Bigguns

Originally posted by No Mo Moss

Anyway, it is good to chat with someone who is into music, listening to current new stuff and revisiting the old.

All due respect Tyrone, but I think you've turned some people off from talking music with you when you called some our favorite stuff "trite and pablum". I know I'm pretty much done with this thread. I wasn't offended, just knew the conversation was over.

I'm into lots of music. I listen to new stuff and revisit the old. Just not in your genre. Music is my life as the manager of a rock band and with being connected to both mainstream, indie and local music. But you can't call someone else's music trash and think you're sitting on a heap of treasure. It just doesn't work that way.

Those are my two cents. Carry on with your music chat.

tyler

Tyler, I highly doubt i caused anybody to stop posting. It is a fairly limited scope for a post. I posted my feelings on some music on April 3rd. I see plenty of posts after that in which people continued to mention their faves. And, I didn't criticize nor even comment. So, I think you are a bit misguided. Certainly didn't stop anybody for the next 3 weeks. And, it is a bit disengenous for you to claim that you were turned off and the conversation was over, since I see plenty of posts by you after my comments.

Also, if you can't defend your position, or point out that it isn't "trite or pablum" than that is your problem, not mine. I can be educated. But, simply using emotion isn't going to do it.

Lastly, you certainly can call something trash. There are standards. We are allowed to make judgements. Certainly your read some magazines that RATE CDs. Most reviewers would put a 3rd Eye Blind CD as somewhere in the 3 out of 5 star rating.

Since you and others make the statement that it must be good because it is on the radio or it is popular, than the only logical conclusion is that Better than Ezra, 3rd Eye, etc. must now suck because none of their new stuff is on the radio and they haven't had a hit. If they were selling a million back then and now 100K then it must not be as good. Pretty stupid.

My point is that most of that stuff is just pure marketing. You can't deny that both Ezra and 3rd Eye lead singers are attractive to females. And, little girls grow up and their taste changes.

If you like trash then be proud of it. No problem. If you have a guilty pleasure realize that it is a guilty pleasure. Myself, I LOVE KC and the Sunshine Band and alot of disco. Reminds me of when I was a kid. But, I certainly recognize that most of it isn't very good.

I'm also a sucker for cheezy 70s style love songs (firefall, air supply, leo sayer, randy van warmer, etc). But, I recognize the cheesiness.

To conclude, and to tie into another post, you are certainly welcome to like Domino's or another brand of chain pizza, but you should recognize that it is pretty crappy compared to the real thing.

**jack's smirking revenge** · 04-26-2006, 11:33 PM

O wise one, please paint me a picture of "the real thing". You can't. There isn't one. The picture of the "real thing" changes from person to person. It's called subjectivity. I like Dominos. That doesn't make it any less of a real thing. I've had pizza at an Italian restaurant in Venice. I know its good and I know I like it. Dominos isn't the same thing, but that doesn't mean I can't like it because its not the same as Venetian pizza. Even suggesting that you know what the "real thing" is is arrogance because there is no "real thing". There's only you and me and we just disagree.

The Cure, Doves, Coldplay, Snow Patrol, Massive Attack and whatever bands you're into at the moment are no more relevant than 3d Blind or BTE. Know why? Because they are relevant to me or to us. That's the bottom line and is all that matters. I'm not about to call the stuff you listen to "trite" or "pablum" or "farts in the wind", and I could easily say that about any of the bands you've listed off and/or talked about, but won't. They're relevant to you and that's all that matters. Every band you listen to arrived in your CD player or on your Ipod through the miracle of marketing at some level--major label, indie or local rock. It doesn't matter. They all go through spin cycle. That's what I do for a living. Spinning so people spend their money and purchase the product I want them to. If you are a fan of any band, you've been spun by marketing. I honestly dont care if the bands I like were liked by teenyboppers or if the lead singer thought the quickest route to acting was through music. I got into BTE when I was a freshman in college. I hooked into their song "Good" and became a fan. Have been ever since, including through their ride when they got dumped by a major, put albums out on their own labels, and were just picked up again by a mid-level major. That's all irrelevant; what's relevant is that I'm a fan. That I connect with the music on some level. You're welcome to your opinion about the music that I listen to, but denograting it without valid reason or explanation is hollow.

And, in regards to your condescending education comment. Just because you're an expert on a genre, doesn't make me an idiot. I could talk circles around you in other genres. The genres I support do just fine without your dollars pouring in. The money I spend at local gigs keeps many bands alive and furthering their craft. I don't listen to radio. I don't watch TV or MTV or VH1. I don't read blogs. I research. I develop my interests through alternate channels. So, don't give me the "well, if they're on the radio, they must be popular" line. Not applicable here. With all of the bands you've mentioned in the last few posts, you are FAR more trendy than I am.

Standards are subjective also. They don't apply similarly across the board. That's like reading 200 reviews of the same CD on Amazon.com. Not everyone will have the same opinion. Not every reviewer is going to like a CD. There is no universally-liked CD. Therefore, there are no true standards. In order to have true standards, you have to have an accepted example of something that is the high end of a standard range and something of the low end. Your standard spectrum is not the same as mine. The standard spectrum for MTV's review of Slayer's "God Hates Us All" is not the same as Kerrang!'s standards for the album. MTV would trash it and give it one star, while Kerrang! could give it four. Is someone really wrong? No because...

Opinions are like a-holes.... I started this thread in the spirit of community, to gather and collect all of the different band interests. Not to judge. Not to criticize. To understand and educate us all. An attempt by me to research what's out there in the different genres. Your welcome to your opinion about the music we listen to, but drop the condescending attitude. I appreciate your list and am interested in checking out what's on it, but I don't think any of us are here to have our interests put down by a self-important music critic.

In the end, it comes down to respect. Calling someone elses interests "trite" or "pablum" or "worthless" (farts in the wind) isn't a show of respect. Yes, I've posted here a bit since April 3. But, in my eyes, this thread, that I started, is dead. Maybe this response was just 3 weeks in the making.

tyler

**Tyrone Bigguns** · 04-27-2006, 01:17 AM

Originally posted by jacks smirking revenge

O wise one, please paint me a picture of "the real thing". You can't. There isn't one. The picture of the "real thing" changes from person to person. It's called subjectivity. I like Dominos. That doesn't make it any less of a real thing. I've had pizza at an Italian restaurant in Venice. I know its good and I know I like it. Dominos isn't the same thing, but that doesn't mean I can't like it because its not the same as Venetian pizza. Even suggesting that you know what the "real thing" is is arrogance because there is no "real thing". There's only you and me and we just disagree.

The Cure, Doves, Coldplay, Snow Patrol, Massive Attack and whatever bands you're into at the moment are no more relevant than 3d Blind or BTE. Know why? Because they are relevant to me or to us. That's the bottom line and is all that matters. I'm not about to call the stuff you listen to "trite" or "pablum" or "farts in the wind", and I could easily say that about any of the bands you've listed off and/or talked about, but won't. They're relevant to you and that's all that matters. Every band you listen to arrived in your CD player or on your Ipod through the miracle of marketing at some level--major label, indie or local rock. It doesn't matter. They all go through spin cycle. That's what I do for a living. Spinning so people spend their money and purchase the product I want them to. If you are a fan of any band, you've been spun by marketing. I honestly dont care if the bands I like were liked by teenyboppers or if the lead singer thought the quickest route to acting was through music. I got into BTE when I was a freshman in college. I hooked into their song "Good" and became a fan. Have been ever since, including through their ride when they got dumped by a major, put albums out on their own labels, and were just picked up again by a mid-level major. That's all irrelevant; what's relevant is that I'm a fan. That I connect with the music on some level. You're welcome to your opinion about the music that I listen to, but denograting it without valid reason or explanation is hollow.

And, in regards to your condescending education comment. Just because you're an expert on a genre, doesn't make me an idiot. I could talk circles around you in other genres. The genres I support do just fine without your dollars pouring in. The money I spend at local gigs keeps many bands alive and furthering their craft. I don't listen to radio. I don't watch TV or MTV or VH1. I don't read blogs. I research. I develop my interests through alternate channels. So, don't give me the "well, if they're on the radio, they must be popular" line. Not applicable here. With all of the bands you've mentioned in the last few posts, you are FAR more trendy than I am.

Standards are subjective also. They don't apply similarly across the board. That's like reading 200 reviews of the same CD on Amazon.com. Not everyone will have the same opinion. Not every reviewer is going to like a CD. There is no universally-liked CD. Therefore, there are no true standards. In order to have true standards, you have to have an accepted example of something that is the high end of a standard range and something of the low end. Your standard spectrum is not the same as mine. The standard spectrum for MTV's review of Slayer's "God Hates Us All" is not the same as Kerrang!'s standards for the album. MTV would trash it and give it one star, while Kerrang! could give it four. Is someone really wrong? No because...

Opinions are like a-holes.... I started this thread in the spirit of community, to gather and collect all of the different band interests. Not to judge. Not to criticize. To understand and educate us all. An attempt by me to research what's out there in the different genres. Your welcome to your opinion about the music we listen to, but drop the condescending attitude. I appreciate your list and am interested in checking out what's on it, but I don't think any of us are here to have our interests put down by a self-important music critic.

In the end, it comes down to respect. Calling someone elses interests "trite" or "pablum" or "worthless" (farts in the wind) isn't a show of respect. Yes, I've posted here a bit since April 3. But, in my eyes, this thread, that I started, is dead. Maybe this response was just 3 weeks in the making.

tyler

Well, we just disagree. You believe everything is subjective. I couldn't disagree more. If everything is subjective, how do we recognize a masterpiece, be it art, music, literature.

That is a foolish argument to make. There is highbrow and lowbrow art. There are B movies. According to your argument, a velvet painting of elvis is no better or worse than a Picasso.

You change the argument from good vs. bad to if I like it than it is good. Fine, I said as much. But, the difference is that you then put it at the same level as every other piece of work. That is just ridiculous.

Real thing. Again, yes there are real things. You are welcome to enjoy Dominos. But, to claim that it is real pizza/authentic is just foolish. And, i would love to see you tell an italian that Olive Garden represents there culture. Like, love, enjoy what you want, but don't tell me its raining when you are pissing on me. That moral/ethical relativism argument is a loser.

Are you really going to look me in the eye and tell me that a Hustler layout is a piece of art at the same level as Renoir, just because I think it is. You are going to defend that?

If you play guitar how do you determine if you are in tune? I think it is subjective. LOL

As for relevance, I have no idea what you are driving at. I never claimed or stated anything regarding relevance. I have stated the exact opposite. If you like it, then enjoy it.

I brought up the "popular" not based upon you alone. You said others were driven off, and one of those people used that as a criteria. That person said if it was getting airplay then it was doing so because it was good. Therefore if it isn't then it must not be good. That is an asinine argument. I would never claim that. Bach, Brahms, Metallica, Slayer, Maiden never get airplay.

Idiot: I don't believe I ever used that term, nor did I imply that. Never said anyone was an idiot. I find it interesting that you are incapable of grasping a simple concept. I have freely said that I like certain bands/songs that most would laugh at. I don't think i'm an idiot for liking them. So, why would i think you or anyone else is. I accept the triteness, banality, insipidness and revel in it. But, i'm not going to say KC is in the same league as the Beatles or Stones. But, using your argument everything is subjective...so Brittney Spears is just as good of an artist as Jimi Hendrix. Puhlease.

Its like when I used to listen to Sisters of Mercy or the Mission Uk. People would criticize based on it being overblown, pompous and ridiculous...and that is exactly why I liked them. Of course its ridiculous.

I never called someone's interest trite. Your interest is music. I called a certain band trite. BTE, 3rd Eye, Tonic, etc...melodic post grunge is most certainly trite. Lyrically they most certainly are. Pablum means simple/insipid writing which, again certainly describes their lyics. Farts in the wind...most certainly are. 10 years from now the only people that will remember most of those bands will be you and a select few. Infact they are barely footnotes right now. Nirvana, PJ, Soundgarden, etc. will be remembered. No one is going to cry if Jenkins offs himself (ok, you and his mom).

Catchy, hooky, and maybe even heartfelt would also describe their tunes. Fair is fair.

Trendy: I don't have a problem with trendy. Anything that breaks ground and gathers a following is going to be labeled that. Metallica was trendy, the Dead were trendy, Nirvana was trendy.

What i find most hilarious is that you would quote, perhaps unknowingly from one of the most trite, insipid artists I can think of..Dave Mason. LOL. But, I love that song because of how cheezy it is.

As for condescending...geez, your post reeks of it. I'm not condescending. I'm stating my opinion. You dont' have to like, respect or even think twice about it. But, it is mine.

I'm more than willing to change my mind, open to considering different viewpoints. But, funny, you have yet to ever really address my criticism of those bands. You just talk about hurt feelings. So, sorry. Didn't realize you were so sensitive.