7 years since 9-11

[Scott Campbell]

There were many acts of heroism, and the people of this country look at New Yorkers differently now. But I still can't help thinking that this came about because we are really stupid. We make people turn their cell phones off in the name of "safety", but left cockpits unsecured. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

[cpk1994]

Why is it mandatory to ridicule an incoherent opinion?

Woody's back? Where?

I'll get my translator.

[mraynrand]

I think our view towards 911 should be the same view Russia takes towards Chernobyl: it was a disaster, a failure, a lesson learned.

Where to start with this? My first reaction is that there is virtually nothing similar between Chernobyl and 9/11. How can they be similar? The Reactor failed for multiple reasons: poor construction, poor staffing, poor oversight, etc. Radiation escaped because, unlike reactors in the west, there was no secondary containment building. If Chernobyl had happened in the U.S., and something like it was close to happening near Cleveland a few years back, virtually no radiation would have escaped. Part two: did Russia really learn a lesson? My understanding is that many reactors have not been updated much or protected. Near Cleveland, the entire reactor was overhauled, people were fired, etc.

Now to 9/11. Was it a disaster? Yes and no. 'Disaster' has overtones of 'accident' or 'acts of nature and/or God' that man can't control or for which he isn't responsible. People caused 9/11. Islamic terrorists. And not just any terrorists. Men who were highly educated, men who lived in the west, men who were highly motivated not by poverty or desperation, but by a specific ideology. Men who used jet planes - the most advanced machines of the west; beautiful soaring symbols of our civilization - to target and destroy skycrapers, arguably the greatest of all symbols of man's achievement. These weren't just enemies of the United States, these were enemies of civilization. Imagine the starving pre-human apes of the movie 2001, being brought to a higher evolutionary plane by the monolith, and then turning on the monolith and destroying it. This is where we were on 9/11. Brought face to face with people who didn't hate us because they were poor and starving, but because we were western, and the west was encroaching on their territory in the middle east: advanced western society must be destroyed.

And what did this mean - what was the existential threat to al Quaeda? What did al quaeda stand for? What did they have to lose as the western world encroached on theirs? Two examples: First, when the Taliban won control over Afghanistan, they did so with brutal killing campaigns in the north. Northern alliance soldiers, defeated, would flee villages and hide in the hills. When the Taliban reached the villages, they didn't want to leave a place to which Northern soldiers could return, so they destroyed the villages. They would bulldoze a giant trench, or pit in the center of town, and fill it with water. Then, they would herd the women and children towards the pit. Sometimes they would shoot all the women and children, and other times, to save bullets, they would simply bulldoze them into the pits and drowning, bulldoze the earth over them, as they still gasped for air.
Other examples: Destruction of any symbols of ancient religious history including the buddhas of Bamyan, intentionally destroyed in 2001 by Mullah Mohammed Omar (as idols, they are forbidden under Sharia law), subjugation of women - covering heads, prohibiting schooling, etc. So that's who attacked the U.S. on 9/11. That 'society' in Afghanistan is what they were trying to preserve.


Was there a failure in the U.S.? Sure, we underestimated these barbarians, and yes, we probably should have had locks on the cockpit instead of turning cell phones off, but why didn't we? Here's where maybe, just maybe, Harlan's point has some merit. The U.S. failed on 9/11 like Russia failed at Chernobyl because of what we are. Russia failed at Chernobyl because the Soviet Union was a disastrous society, and that reflected in the shoddy construction and management of the reactor. The U.S. 'failed' because we are an open western society that too often assumed the advanced and civilized nature of man - assumed that humankind is always and everywhere improving and had risen forever, far above the slime of our barbaric past. That was not true, and probably never will be true. We will always have evil with us, and our failure was a failure to understand or remember at a visceral level what true evil can do. So, lesson learned, right? RIGHT?

[retailguy]

Harlan, You should really feel foolish after reading this. Even notwithstanding Rand's attempt at implying you 'might' have a point.

You started by bashing MTP, then regressed to bashing the single largest terrorist attack in the history of the US if not the world, by making a comparison to a nuclear accident rooted in shoddy planning, implementation and maintenance...

I don't know if you were trying to be funny, or trying to be divisive, but I wasn't amused with whatever it was... FWIW- and that's not very much...

[Harlan Huckleby]

The national mythology of Serbia is centered around a battlefield defeat that happened in Kososvo in the 13th century. Apparently the Islamic Armies kicked their asses, and now they celebrate this historic turning point as some sort of national rallying cry, a patriotic day of shared grievance. They sing ballads that retell the story of this great loss.

It has made the Serbian character sullen, they are a warlike people, and always quick to see themselves as victims. In short, they are retarded.

I don't think it would be healthy or positive to turn 911 into a national patriotic holiday of mourning and shared grievance. That would be like packer fans having a shared annual cry over the 4-and-21 day, pictures of Mike Sherman hoisted over our heads, reopening the wounds.

We shouldn't let the bastards bring us down! It is critical to close the wound. Remember, but don't dwell. Aspire to greatness, conquering new challenges, don't get stuck looking backward in the muck of vengeance.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Where to start with this? My first reaction is that there is virtually nothing similar between Chernobyl and 9/11. How can they be similar? The Reactor failed for multiple reasons: poor construction, poor staffing, poor oversight, etc. Radiation escaped because, unlike reactors in the west, there was no secondary containment building.

OK, they are different, there is no enemy in Chernobyl. But C. & 911 have more in common than they have difference. They are huge, sad tragedies caused by human failure. People asleep at the switch.

People caused 9/11. Islamic terrorists. And not just any terrorists. Men who were highly educated, men who lived in the west, men who were highly motivated not by poverty or desperation, but by a specific ideology.

Ya, it is a big deal. The fight against terrorism is a big deal. But it need not be all-consuming, and it CERTAINLY should not define us, or even our policy.

We are going to beat the bastards. And it is critical to note that the battle is primarily one to be won by the Muslims themselves, its mostly an internecine war, and the radicals are a minority.

[mraynrand]

I don't think it would be healthy or positive to turn 911 into a national patriotic holiday of mourning and shared grievance.
We shouldn't let the bastards bring us down! It is critical to close the wound. Remember, but don't dwell. Aspire to greatness, conquering new challenges, don't get stuck looking backward in the muck of vengeance.

Ever hear of Pearl Harbor Day? You know, Dec. 7, when all Americans turn out to kill the Japanese? We 'closed the wound' of Pearl Harbor by defeating Imperial Japan. Have we defeated those who attacked us on 9/11? Is defeating them vengeance, or self-preservation?

[mraynrand]

We are going to beat the bastards. And it is critical to note that the battle is primarily one to be won by the Muslims themselves, its mostly an internecine war, and the radicals are a minority.

40% of young UK Muslims want sharia law
Over a third say conversion from Islam should be 'punished by death'

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=54018

[Harlan Huckleby]

I don't think it would be healthy or positive to turn 911 into a national patriotic holiday of mourning and shared grievance.
We shouldn't let the bastards bring us down! It is critical to close the wound. Remember, but don't dwell. Aspire to greatness, conquering new challenges, don't get stuck looking backward in the muck of vengeance.

Ever hear of Pearl Harbor Day? You know, Dec. 7, when all Americans turn out to kill the Japanese? We 'closed the wound' of Pearl Harbor by defeating Imperial Japan. Have we defeated those who attacked us on 9/11? Is defeating them vengeance, or self-preservation?

I think that is a good comparison. But the difference in my mind is that I knew Adolph Hitler, he was a friend of mine, and the Islamic fascists are no Adolph Hitler. The terrorists do NOT present that sort of existensial threat, we are kicking their asses, and the Islamic world is turning against them.

I don't disagree with your points. Defeating the terrorists goes beyond vengeance.

Pearl Harbor Day is now a big deal mostly for people who were alive during the 1940's. And I think that is as it should be.

We don't have a national day of mourning over the Great Chicago Fire.

Perhaps I am being insensitive, the wounds of 911 are pretty fresh.

[mraynrand]

OK, they are different, there is no enemy in Chernobyl. But C. & 911 have more in common than they have difference. They are huge, sad tragedies caused by human failure. People asleep at the switch.

I couldn't disagree more about the comparison between Chernobyl and 9/11. The fucking terrorists killed our citizens. The airport security people did not kill anybody. Their failure didn't CAUSE the terrorists to kill. The terrorist didn't fail at anything - they were wide awake at the switch.


Chernobyl was caused by fucking incompetents.

[Harlan Huckleby]

We are going to beat the bastards. And it is critical to note that the battle is primarily one to be won by the Muslims themselves, its mostly an internecine war, and the radicals are a minority.

40% of young UK Muslims want sharia law
Over a third say conversion from Islam should be 'punished by death'

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=54018

why aren't bombs going off all over England?

Europe is more threatened than us, no bout a doubt it. The Islamicists are not going to take over the west.

[mraynrand]

We don't have a national day of mourning over the Great Chicago Fire.

WTF? I didn't know we were attacked, causing the Chicago Fire. Did we go to war over it?

[Harlan Huckleby]

OK, they are different, there is no enemy in Chernobyl. But C. & 911 have more in common than they have difference. They are huge, sad tragedies caused by human failure. People asleep at the switch.

I couldn't disagree more about the comparison between Chernobyl and 9/11. The fucking terrorists killed our citizens. The airport security people did not kill anybody. Their failure didn't CAUSE the terrorists to kill. The terrorist didn't fail at anything - they were wide awake at the switch.


Chernobyl was caused by fucking incompetents.

911 was caused by incompetents. Arabs taking flying lessons, not concerned about landing? Our guard was way down. Amazing, given the bombing of the World Trade Center back in the eary 90's.

[mmmdk]

The national mythology of Serbia is centered around a battlefield defeat that happened in Kososvo in the 13th century. Apparently the Islamic Armies kicked their asses, and now they celebrate this historic turning point as some sort of national rallying cry, a patriotic day of shared grievance. They sing ballads that retell the story of this great loss.

It has made the Serbian character sullen, they are a warlike people, and always quick to see themselves as victims. In short, they are retarded.

I don't think it would be healthy or positive to turn 911 into a national patriotic holiday of mourning and shared grievance. That would be like packer fans having a shared annual cry over the 4-and-21 day, pictures of Mike Sherman hoisted over our heads, reopening the wounds.

We shouldn't let the bastards bring us down! It is critical to close the wound. Remember, but don't dwell. Aspire to greatness, conquering new challenges, don't get stuck looking backward in the muck of vengeance.

I remember & I agree.

[mraynrand]

We are going to beat the bastards. And it is critical to note that the battle is primarily one to be won by the Muslims themselves, its mostly an internecine war, and the radicals are a minority.

40% of young UK Muslims want sharia law
Over a third say conversion from Islam should be 'punished by death'

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=54018

why aren't bombs going off all over England?

Europe is more threatened than us, no bout a doubt it. The Islamicists are not going to take over the west.

Why explode bombs when you don't need to - especially when in 50 years, you will be the majority, and the Archbishop of Canterbury already agrees with you.