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  • Biden: Be Patriotic, Pay More Taxes!

    from http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080918/...pr/biden_taxes


    "We want to take money and put it back in the pocket of middle-class people," Biden said in an interview on ABC's "Good Morning America."

    Noting that wealthier Americans would indeed pay more, Biden said: "It's time to be patriotic ... time to jump in, time to be part of the deal, time to help get America out of the rut."
    The article also re-stated the canard that higher taxes "proposed by Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama" would only affect "people earning more than $250,000 a year...while those earning less — the vast majority of American taxpayers — would receive a tax cut."

    The best article I've seen on the true effect of Obama's tax proposals is here: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,405562,00.html

    The article is written by John Lott who is the author of Freedomnomics and a senior research scientist at the University of Maryland.

    Lott writes:
    John McCain’s proposals have top marginal income tax rates of 35 percent for individuals and 25 percent for corporations, while Barack Obama’s plan has rates of 39.6 and 35 percent respectively. But the official marginal tax rate isn’t the rate that people actually pay, because they also lose tax breaks as their income rises.

    While Obama would directly increase the marginal income tax rate on families making more than $250,000 per year and raise the rates on capital gains and dividends, he has a whole set of new and expanded tax breaks for the poor, retirees, students, homeowners and new farmers. All these tax breaks phase out with higher incomes, producing high effective marginal tax rates for those with low incomes as well as for people making between $100,000 and $120,000.

    The effects of these phase-outs are dramatic. Alex Brill and Alan Viard, at the American Enterprise Institute, show that a two-earner couple with two children (one of whom is in college) can face a 34 percent marginal tax rate when they earn $31,000, with the tax rate rising to 39 percent when their family income reaches $45,000. And families making $110,000 to $120,000 may have to think twice about making more money with the federal income tax alone taking almost half of each additional dollar they make.
    Obama has also promised to close corporate tax "loopholes," to impose an "excess" profits tax on energy companies and to increase the amount of income subject to Social Security payroll (FICA) taxes. Many of us understand that these increased taxes on corporations and businesses inevitably trickle down to the rest of us in the form of increased prices for the consumables we purchase.

    However, there are economically illiterate people who are willing to accept Obama's promises at face value. "Only the rich will pay Obama's increased taxes," they argue. For these naive souls I offer the following:

    First, in 1913 the "income tax" was first imposed. It was sold as a minor tax on the "super rich." It was politically palitable to middle class taxpayers only because they couldn't imagine the tax would ever apply to them.

    Second, words to ponder by Martin Niemöller:

    First they came for the Communists,
    - but I was not a communist so I did not speak out.
    Then they came for the Socialists and the Trade Unionists,
    - but I was neither, so I did not speak out.
    Then they came for the Jews,
    - but I was not a Jew so I did not speak out.
    And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me.
    And finally there is this, from Ludwig von Mises: "The first objection to this proposal [equal redistribution of wealth] is that it will not help the situation much because those of moderate means far outnumber the rich, so that each individual could expect from such a distribution only a quite insignificant increment in his standard of living. This is certainly correct, but the argument is not complete. Those who advocate equality of income distribution overlook the most important point, namely, that the total available for distribution, the annual product of social labor, is not independent of the manner in which it is divided. The fact that that product today is as great as it is, is not a natural or technological phenomenon independent of all social conditions, but entirely the result of our social institutions. Only because inequality of wealth is possible in our social order, only because it stimulates everyone to produce as much as he can and at the lowest cost, does mankind today have at its disposal the total annual wealth now available for consumption. Were this incentive to be destroyed, productivity would be so greatly reduced that the portion that an equal distribution would allot to each individual would be far less than what even the poorest receives today."

    What von Mises is saying, for those among us who are just plain illiterate, is that income redistribution will kill the goose that lays the golden egg the "poor" among us covet so. If that's not plain enough, I can't imagine what is.
    One time Lombardi was disgusted with the team in practice and told them they were going to have to start with the basics. He held up a ball and said: "This is a football." McGee immediately called out, "Stop, coach, you're going too fast," and that gave everyone a laugh.
    John Maxymuk, Packers By The Numbers

  • #2
    Re: Biden: Be Patriotic, Pay More Taxes!

    Originally posted by Maxie the Taxi
    What von Mises is saying, for those among us who are just plain illiterate....
    I bought The Ultimate Foundation of Economic Science: An Essay on Method, my head hurts just looking at the book. I need to decide; beer or read. I have found this book does not mix well with beer.

    My beer supply is dwindling.
    After lunch the players lounged about the hotel patio watching the surf fling white plumes high against the darkening sky. Clouds were piling up in the west… Vince Lombardi frowned.

    Comment


    • #3
      Ol' Joe is certainly the gift that keeps on giving isn't he? Axelrod can't script everyone like he does BHO. He can hide Teresa I mean Michelle for a while which he's done. Great theater especially when you're this far over your head.
      Lombardi told Starr to "Run it, and let's get the hell out of here!" - 'Ice Bowl' December 31, 1967

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Biden: Be Patriotic, Pay More Taxes!

        Originally posted by HowardRoark
        Originally posted by Maxie the Taxi
        What von Mises is saying, for those among us who are just plain illiterate....
        I bought The Ultimate Foundation of Economic Science: An Essay on Method, my head hurts just looking at the book. I need to decide; beer or read. I have found this book does not mix well with beer.

        My beer supply is dwindling.
        Nonsense. It's only something like 150 pages, right? If you like philosophy, you'll like the book. Save the beer for Sunday night.

        One of the points I find most interesting in the book is Mises' contention that economics is a logical, theoretical (a priori) science reasoned from a self-evident premise. This flies in the face of those who consider economics an empirical, experimental (a posteriori) science. Thus, economics is like theoretical mathematics, not physics. Properly reasoned, it's theorems are only as true as the premise upon which they are based. It's conclusions cannot be disproved by experiment or experience.

        This seems a hard concept to swallow, especially today when empirical proof and the scientific method condition our thinking. However, I think you'll eventually agree that Mises' argument is correct (especially if considered sans beer ).
        One time Lombardi was disgusted with the team in practice and told them they were going to have to start with the basics. He held up a ball and said: "This is a football." McGee immediately called out, "Stop, coach, you're going too fast," and that gave everyone a laugh.
        John Maxymuk, Packers By The Numbers

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Biden: Be Patriotic, Pay More Taxes!

          Originally posted by HowardRoark
          Originally posted by Maxie the Taxi
          What von Mises is saying, for those among us who are just plain illiterate....
          I bought The Ultimate Foundation of Economic Science: An Essay on Method, my head hurts just looking at the book. I need to decide; beer or read. I have found this book does not mix well with beer.

          My beer supply is dwindling.
          Go for the beer unless Von Mises is running for office.
          C.H.U.D.

          Comment


          • #6
            I suppose beer could also be an example. If guys like Obama get their way, there is no incentive to produce this:



            But, at leat everyone could drink this:

            After lunch the players lounged about the hotel patio watching the surf fling white plumes high against the darkening sky. Clouds were piling up in the west… Vince Lombardi frowned.

            Comment


            • #7
              100 IBUs! Midnight sun brewed an IPA that was 200IBUs...it was like sucking a grapefruit.



              The Surly stuff looks good...I'll have to look for it when I'm down/over that way.

              Your beer fear tactics are not working though...
              C.H.U.D.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Biden: Be Patriotic, Pay More Taxes!

                Originally posted by Maxie the Taxi
                The article is written by John Lott who is the author of Freedomnomics and a senior research scientist at the University of Maryland.
                ad hominem coming in 5..4..3...2...
                "Never, never ever support a punk like mraynrand. Rather be as I am and feel real sympathy for his sickness." - Woodbuck

                Comment


                • #9
                  Obama's tax plan would increase taxes in 2009 on the wealthiest 20 percent of households, while offering tax cuts for the other 80 percent. The largest increases would be on the top 1 percent of earners, according to analysis by the Tax Policy Center, a nonpartisan research group whose staff of experts includes former economic advisers to the White House and Congress under both Republicans and Democrats.

                  By comparison, the Tax Policy Center analysis says McCain would offer tax cuts across the board. Those at the top end of the scale would get the biggest percentage cuts under McCain, while households with the lowest incomes would receive the largest percentage cuts under Obama's plan.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by packinpatland
                    Obama's tax plan would increase taxes in 2009 on the wealthiest 20 percent of households, while offering tax cuts for the other 80 percent. The largest increases would be on the top 1 percent of earners, according to analysis by the Tax Policy Center, a nonpartisan research group whose staff of experts includes former economic advisers to the White House and Congress under both Republicans and Democrats.

                    By comparison, the Tax Policy Center analysis says McCain would offer tax cuts across the board. Those at the top end of the scale would get the biggest percentage cuts under McCain, while households with the lowest incomes would receive the largest percentage cuts under Obama's plan.
                    That's just known as math.

                    The majority of people in this country don't even pay the kinds of taxes that Obama is talking about. He is advocating actually moving money out of one person's pocket and into the other person's pocket via Fed. Gov't

                    I contend that those with Capital do a better job of moving money into the poor person's pocket via private investment.
                    After lunch the players lounged about the hotel patio watching the surf fling white plumes high against the darkening sky. Clouds were piling up in the west… Vince Lombardi frowned.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by HowardRoark
                      Originally posted by packinpatland
                      Obama's tax plan would increase taxes in 2009 on the wealthiest 20 percent of households, while offering tax cuts for the other 80 percent. The largest increases would be on the top 1 percent of earners, according to analysis by the Tax Policy Center, a nonpartisan research group whose staff of experts includes former economic advisers to the White House and Congress under both Republicans and Democrats.

                      By comparison, the Tax Policy Center analysis says McCain would offer tax cuts across the board. Those at the top end of the scale would get the biggest percentage cuts under McCain, while households with the lowest incomes would receive the largest percentage cuts under Obama's plan.
                      That's just known as math.

                      The majority of people in this country don't even pay the kinds of taxes that Obama is talking about. He is advocating actually moving money out of one person's pocket and into the other person's pocket via Fed. Gov't

                      I contend that those with Capital do a better job of moving money into the poor person's pocket via private investment.
                      That sounds interesting.....could you elaborate?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by HowardRoark
                        Originally posted by packinpatland
                        Obama's tax plan would increase taxes in 2009 on the wealthiest 20 percent of households, while offering tax cuts for the other 80 percent. The largest increases would be on the top 1 percent of earners, according to analysis by the Tax Policy Center, a nonpartisan research group whose staff of experts includes former economic advisers to the White House and Congress under both Republicans and Democrats.

                        By comparison, the Tax Policy Center analysis says McCain would offer tax cuts across the board. Those at the top end of the scale would get the biggest percentage cuts under McCain, while households with the lowest incomes would receive the largest percentage cuts under Obama's plan.
                        That's just known as math.

                        The majority of people in this country don't even pay the kinds of taxes that Obama is talking about. He is advocating actually moving money out of one person's pocket and into the other person's pocket via Fed. Gov't

                        I contend that those with Capital do a better job of moving money into the poor person's pocket via private investment.
                        Given that almost 40% pay no income taxes, the 'tax cut' for those not paying taxes then becomes 'welfare.' Since most low wage earners pay FICA (SS), the 'tax cut' is a cut in how much they in effect pay for their own retirement fund. even though it is a ponzi scheme, social security has to this point been a pension fund of sorts - you pay in and you get back. Obama's 'tax cut' would essentially turn social security into more of a welfare program. So Social Security would not only be flawed in that it is a pension program that doesn't grow investments, but it would be a hand out program, where the recipients pay less and less in their working years.
                        "Never, never ever support a punk like mraynrand. Rather be as I am and feel real sympathy for his sickness." - Woodbuck

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I really hope Biden's favorite networks play and replay the smirking bastard's lame defense of Obama's economy-destroying tax program.

                          The bottom line of the whole deal is that the Obama plan will drag the economy down for everybody, while the McCain plan will STIMULATE growth, and IMPROVE the lot of everybody. I suppose I should say "would" instead of "will" for McCain's plan, because, as somebody in this forum pointed out, with the leftist ...... assholes ......(there's that word again, but what else are you gonna call them?) in control of Congress, McCain's tax cuts have little chance of passage.

                          Literally no economist with a brain in his head advocates RAISING taxes--as Obama intends in a time of economic downturn. Only the left-leaning ones with an extremely liberal NON-economic agenda advocate RAISING taxes even in good times.

                          THIS is the message that needs to be stated--worsening the economy for everybody by RAISING taxes. If we start talking about "fairness" and "redistribution of wealth" and "it's really a welfare program", then the leftists are going to counter with their "class warfare"/"class envy" message, and believe me, THAT will resonate with far more people--especially when they have the leftist mainstream media amplifying their positions.
                          What could be more GOOD and NORMAL and AMERICAN than Packer Football?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by packinpatland
                            Originally posted by HowardRoark
                            Originally posted by packinpatland
                            Obama's tax plan would increase taxes in 2009 on the wealthiest 20 percent of households, while offering tax cuts for the other 80 percent. The largest increases would be on the top 1 percent of earners, according to analysis by the Tax Policy Center, a nonpartisan research group whose staff of experts includes former economic advisers to the White House and Congress under both Republicans and Democrats.

                            By comparison, the Tax Policy Center analysis says McCain would offer tax cuts across the board. Those at the top end of the scale would get the biggest percentage cuts under McCain, while households with the lowest incomes would receive the largest percentage cuts under Obama's plan.
                            That's just known as math.

                            The majority of people in this country don't even pay the kinds of taxes that Obama is talking about. He is advocating actually moving money out of one person's pocket and into the other person's pocket via Fed. Gov't

                            I contend that those with Capital do a better job of moving money into the poor person's pocket via private investment.
                            That sounds interesting.....could you elaborate?
                            employment
                            After lunch the players lounged about the hotel patio watching the surf fling white plumes high against the darkening sky. Clouds were piling up in the west… Vince Lombardi frowned.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              That sounds downright Keynesian, Howard. Maybe there's hope for you after all.

                              THIS, indeed, is what we need to emphasize--NOT the old "Oh, it's so unfair to have so many on the low end pay so little". Those in that situation vote too, and they like it like that--and there's a helluva lot of them.
                              What could be more GOOD and NORMAL and AMERICAN than Packer Football?

                              Comment

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