Joe the Plumber

[texaspackerbacker]

If the tax is "flat", they AREN'T paying a higher percentage--merely the SAME percentage--and as I said, most of thse programs have some sort of progressivity built in where anybody below some level pays nothing at all.

[arcilite]

If the tax is "flat", they AREN'T paying a higher percentage--merely the SAME percentage--and as I said, most of thse programs have some sort of progressivity built in where anybody below some level pays nothing at all.

See, thats where you need to do some critical thinking.


I know they are paying the same percentage.

Lets take someone earning 30k versus someone earning 300k.

Someone earning 30k has to spend 15k a year on misc stuff to get by.

300k has a more lavish lifestyle and will spend 30k on misc stuff to get by.

At a tax rate of 30% the 30k person spends 4.5k in taxes which is 15% of their salary.

At a tax rate of 30% the 300k person spends 9k in taxes which is 3% of their salary.


Which is how I get to the point that those who earn less, will spend a larger portion of their income paying taxes.

This is just a rough example. I understand there are ways to help out those who earn less. But won't that fall into your 'Robin Hood' argument which this forum seems to be hating on Obama for?

Also it will be nearly impossible to implement such a tax system in the U.S. this day in age anyways.

[mraynrand]

Lets take someone earning 30k versus someone earning 300k.

Someone earning 30k has to spend 15k a year on misc stuff to get by.

300k has a more lavish lifestyle and will spend 30k on misc stuff to get by.

At a tax rate of 30% the 30k person spends 4.5k in taxes which is 15% of their salary.

At a tax rate of 30% the 300k person spends 9k in taxes which is 3% of their salary.

Check your math.

[gex]

Well after reading these and other arguments for the last few weeks/months, I have changed my mind and will vote for Obama.

After Obama beat Hillary I was all for Mcain, but the only thing I ever hear from Mcain/repub voters is "my money, my money, me,me,me"
Enough is enough, its time to start ponying up for anybody who makes more than $90,000/yr.

Most people around here raise families on between $30-75,000/yr. and the ones making $75 are considered to be living the good life.

You people(greedy) may not like it, but Obama's gettin in and its gonna happen. Time to start taking care of each other as a whole society.

Btw, people making less than $50,000 working in retail and service are on their feet working their asses off for 10-14 hr shifts. Thats who I'm voting for.

[texaspackerbacker]

Lets take someone earning 30k versus someone earning 300k.

Someone earning 30k has to spend 15k a year on misc stuff to get by.

300k has a more lavish lifestyle and will spend 30k on misc stuff to get by.

At a tax rate of 30% the 30k person spends 4.5k in taxes which is 15% of their salary.

At a tax rate of 30% the 300k person spends 9k in taxes which is 3% of their salary.

Check your math.

Yeah, 30% of 30,000 (heaven forbid we ever have a tax rate THAT high) is 9,000. 30% of 300,000 is 90,000.

Ten times the income/ten times the tax--FLAT.

[Scott Campbell]

If the tax is "flat", they AREN'T paying a higher percentage--merely the SAME percentage--and as I said, most of thse programs have some sort of progressivity built in where anybody below some level pays nothing at all.

See, thats where you need to do some critical thinking.


I know they are paying the same percentage.

Lets take someone earning 30k versus someone earning 300k.

Someone earning 30k has to spend 15k a year on misc stuff to get by.

300k has a more lavish lifestyle and will spend 30k on misc stuff to get by.

At a tax rate of 30% the 30k person spends 4.5k in taxes which is 15% of their salary.

At a tax rate of 30% the 300k person spends 9k in taxes which is 3% of their salary.


Which is how I get to the point that those who earn less, will spend a larger portion of their income paying taxes.

This is just a rough example. I understand there are ways to help out those who earn less. But won't that fall into your 'Robin Hood' argument which this forum seems to be hating on Obama for?

Also it will be nearly impossible to implement such a tax system in the U.S. this day in age anyways.

Why should any man have to pay more than the next? Should the rich have to pay $12/gallon of gas while the poor pay$3?

If that's the case, then I think everyone should get one vote for each dollar of tax they contribute to this country.

Poor people don't contribute as much (at least economically) to society as more successful people do.

[arcilite]

Lets take someone earning 30k versus someone earning 300k.

Someone earning 30k has to spend 15k a year on misc stuff to get by.

300k has a more lavish lifestyle and will spend 30k on misc stuff to get by.

At a tax rate of 30% the 30k person spends 4.5k in taxes which is 15% of their salary.

At a tax rate of 30% the 300k person spends 9k in taxes which is 3% of their salary.

Check your math.

hahah thanks. I messed that one up big time.

[GoPackGo]

Why should any man have to pay more than the next? Should the rich have to pay $12/gallon of gas while the poor pay$3?

If that's the case, then I think everyone should get one vote for each dollar of tax they contribute to this country.

Poor people don't contribute as much (at least economically) to society as more successful people do.

Its pretty hard to argue with that logic

[mraynrand]

Well after reading these and other arguments for the last few weeks/months, I have changed my mind and will vote for Obama.

After Obama beat Hillary I was all for Mcain, but the only thing I ever hear from Mcain/repub voters is "my money, my money, me,me,me"
Enough is enough, its time to start ponying up for anybody who makes more than $90,000/yr.

Most people around here raise families on between $30-75,000/yr. and the ones making $75 are considered to be living the good life.

You people(greedy) may not like it, but Obama's gettin in and its gonna happen. Time to start taking care of each other as a whole society.

Btw, people making less than $50,000 working in retail and service are on their feet working their asses off for 10-14 hr shifts. Thats who I'm voting for.

A few questions:

Why 90K?

If 75K is considered the 'good life,' then why do they need more from 90K folks?

What is your definition of greedy?

You claim that all you ever hear from repubs is my money, etc. What about Joe the Plumber? It seems like every conservative has been fighting for HIS money - so that he can keep it and use it to hire OTHER people and grow the economy. Even if we're totally wrong about the economics, Isn't it wrong to say that all we care about is 'MY money?'

Why does the government have to be employed to redistribute monies? Conservatives of all economic classes donate more in time and money than liberals. If you take away money from conservatives, who will donate?

[retailguy]

Well after reading these and other arguments for the last few weeks/months, I have changed my mind and will vote for Obama.

After Obama beat Hillary I was all for Mcain, but the only thing I ever hear from Mcain/repub voters is "my money, my money, me,me,me"
Enough is enough, its time to start ponying up for anybody who makes more than $90,000/yr.

Most people around here raise families on between $30-75,000/yr. and the ones making $75 are considered to be living the good life.

You people(greedy) may not like it, but Obama's gettin in and its gonna happen. Time to start taking care of each other as a whole society.

Btw, people making less than $50,000 working in retail and service are on their feet working their asses off for 10-14 hr shifts. Thats who I'm voting for.

This is probably one of the most uninformed posts related to government and financial matters that I've ever read.

Do you think that I just got things handed to me in my life?

For heavens sake. My father was a beautician and my mother was a housewife. My parents paid $18k for their first house in 1976, and I worked my ASS off in school for scholarships. I spent $60k on a bachelors degree from the University of Wisconsin, and well in excess of $100k for a Masters degree from Columbia. I studied and studied and studied to pass the CPA exam.

Then, I quit my job in the oil industry and opened a retail store. I grew three concept retail stores from one little mall kiosk to 14 stores in 5 years working 70+ hours a week including weekends and holidays. I put up with countless hours of crap from uninformed people, and hired those very uneducated workers you talked about Gex. 3 weeks after they were working for me, they thought they knew how to run my business better than I did. After 7 years of that, I sold the business, and made a down payment on a tax practice.

I ran that practice jointly with a parter for 5 years, and we doubled the size of that practice, working an average of 80 hours per week. When I sold back to my partner, we were doing more tax returns out of tax season than we were during it....

I moved my family half way across the country so my wife could attend law school. She's in her third year, and will graduate in May 2009. We will spend in excess of $125k on her law school education. This doesn't include the costs of her bachelors degree and her masters degree.

So, considering your rant from above, I'm GREEDY? WTF?

I'm not "entitled" to keep what I earned and what I risked? Are you crazy? Maybe you should move to Switzerland, or Denmark. wealth redistribution seems to work out ok over there.

I give more to charity each year than I made annually my first three years out of school. I tithe faithfully to my church. I volunteer my time in Christian and non Christian events in my community. I'm a 10 gallon blood donor. I serve on local boards. And I'M GREEDY? <sigh>

You sir, are completely NUTS. If the rest of the world feels like you do, yes, we're screwed. But if you, and the rest of the $50k wage earners would get OFF THEIR ASS instead of looking for a damn handout, we might get somewhere in this country.

Christ. I'm off my soapbox now.

[Scott Campbell]

So, considering your rant from above, I'm GREEDY? WTF?

No, based on the rant from above you're stupid. Why would you want to make such a large and foolish investment. You two should have just gotten mindless retail jobs and sucked off the government tit like all the other lazy under performers who are about to cash in on the Obama presidency.

Or so they think.

[mraynrand]

government tit .

MMMMMmmmmmm...Government Tit. My one weakness! D'oh!

[Partial]

Arcilite,

How much is too much? seriously. at some point "taxing the wealthy" doesn't work any longer. Why should I bust my ass to make money to give it all to the Gov't? I might as well retire, and live off my earnings to control my tax burden.

When Carter was in office the highest marginal rate was approaching 70%, I believe. When Reagan got into office he sliced the tax rates to a maximum of 28%, or 33% with the deduction recapture, and tax revenues went UP. Why? Because the rich went back to working.

The rich are a funny breed Arcilite. They're all about making money. For most of them, it's a trophy, and accomplishment. Some also take great pride in providing jobs, and teaching others to achieve what they have achieved. Still others take great pride in giving it away. Let the few who don't keep it, it isn't really any different from some of the poor, some of which WANT to be that way and don't want help.... We should let those people be as well.

This class warfare stuff is so stupid. If you continue to think of the world as a "zero sum game" as Obama does, then well, that's what you get. If you get your ass out of the way and let those who know how to do something, do it, then EVERYONE benefits.

Currently, the top 50% of income earners pay the vast majority of Federal Income Taxes. It already is progressive. No need to make it worse. No need at all. They already ARE paying more, and enough is enough.

Well in a perfect world that is awesome. But someone has to pay taxes. And right now the lower-middle class people are hurting so it is time to shift some of that burden to the upper class.

If the middle class people are hurting, maybe they should get a second job. Do you think these people making 250k+ made it to that level by working 8 hours a day? I sure don't.

[MJZiggy]

Ok, I've just read this whole thing and I have a couple things. Joe the Plumber's biggest problem is not that the is an unlicensed plumber. (well HIS biggest problem likely is because Ohio will likely frown on him working in a licensed field without a license so he probably screwed himself.) After I managed to miss the debate I went online to try and get clips and ran across a Katie Couric interview with him and she and her gotcha questions asked old Joe if he happened to make $250K a year. Joe said no. She said you realize that this tax increase doesn't affect you, right? To which Joe said, "Well....uhhhh....but what if that $250K becomes 100K? How do we know he won't do that??? (Because when the top 5% of earners in the country make only $100K we have bigger problems than Joe.) Obama isn't touting an income dollar figure as much as he's offering a figure representing a percentage of population. I think he's referring to the top 5 and attaching a $250K number to represent them. If he lowers the number to represent the top 20% then he loses the next election.

Second, redistribution of wealth? GIVING the money to people who make less? Isn't this tax going to fund crazy shit like a WAR??? And crumbling infrastructure??? And Federal prisons?? And Social Security? I don't recall Obama saying he was gonna take Scott's check and hand it to Harlan. The government still needs to function and Obama's point is that it should be the ones who are most able should be the ones to help out most. And I don't want to hear any BS about entitlements while McCain is talking about buying out people's mortgages for them at full price and for more than their houses are worth. McCain also hasn't said how he plans to fund this one...I think Scott's check would likely go for that one. At the same time McCain is calling for a spending freeze because government spending is out of control. It is, but you've just offered to buy out millions of bad mortgages...and to what benefit to those who struggled to stay in their houses?

I'm thinking McCain is secretly sporting a government D-cup...

[retailguy]

And so, the mis-information starts. Joe is unlicensed because he doesn't need a license, because he works with and for a licensed plumber. That is legal in Ohio.

The fact that Joe "supposedly" isn't affected by this tax increase is not relevant. The fact that his brain sees through the sham, IS relevant. The fact that it is relevant is why we know that Joe is "unlicensed" and hasn't paid his property taxes. If that isn't enough to get "society" talking about something else, we'll find out that Joe doesn't like cats or did something stupid when he was drunk and 16.

Oh, and Ziggy, do you remember a guy by the name of Bill Clinton. Yes, you must, but, way far back in 1992, he "tried as hard as he could" but he just had to raise the middle class taxes, with the single largest increase in history....

It remains to be seen, just "how hard" Barack will work to keep his word.

McCain? Barack lite. It'd be "better" but still not great. McCain is the "lesser of two evils".