Second Bill of (Positive) Rights

[mraynrand]

Powerline http://www.powerlineblog.com/archive.../10/021903.php outlines the second Bill of Rights, Obama's apparent support of this (along with Sherrod Brown, Ohio Senator) and defense of these principles by fellow Chicago Professor, mentor, and likely Supreme Court nominee, Cass Sunstein (If, God forbid, Obama becomes pres). The article is from a conservative perspective, but has links to all the relevant viewpoints of the individuals involved, like Cass Sunstein. Sunstein makes the point that we are already engaging in 'redistribution' and he is correct; however, he, Sherrod Brown, and Obama on many issues effectively endorse positive Bill of Rights pinciples, which take redistribution to an extreme, and would require extreme amounts of government intervention




Sunstein's book: http://www.amazon.com/Second-Bill-Ri.../dp/0465083323

quote: "without public support, wealthy people could not possibly have what they own.... those who denounce government largesse as a violation of rights disregard the extent to which their own rights are a product of government". In other words, because government protects the 'negative' rights in the constitution, it should have free will in imposing positive rights on citizens. That's your future Supreme Court justice's argument in a nutshell.

It's clear a lot of you believe in this - like Harlan. We should be able to take as much as needed from the haves to support FDRs Bill of positive Rights (such as):

The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation;
The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;
The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;
The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;
The right of every family to a decent home;
The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;
The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;
The right to a good education.
------------

With Obama, we will likely take a giant leap in this direction. Is it what you want?

[HowardRoark]

You owe your life -- and everything else -- to the sovereign. The rights of subjects are not natural rights, but merely grants from the sovereign. There is no right even to complain about the actions of the sovereign, except insofar as the sovereign allows the subject to complain. These are the principles of unlimited, arbitrary, and absolute power, the principles of such rulers as Louis XIV. Intellectuals have assiduously promoted them; think of Jean Bodin and Thomas Hobbes.

If I may be so shrill.....YIKES!!!!!

BTW, who exactly decides what these new positive Rights are? I want to drop them a line about a few things.

[Freak Out]

You owe your life -- and everything else -- to the sovereign. The rights of subjects are not natural rights, but merely grants from the sovereign. There is no right even to complain about the actions of the sovereign, except insofar as the sovereign allows the subject to complain. These are the principles of unlimited, arbitrary, and absolute power, the principles of such rulers as Louis XIV. Intellectuals have assiduously promoted them; think of Jean Bodin and Thomas Hobbes.

If I may be so shrill.....YIKES!!!!!

BTW, who exactly decides what these new positive Rights are? I want to drop them a line about a few things.

Yet another reason why I keep and bear arms. Oh....and Hussein supports this? Sure thing Ayn.

[Fosco33]

I just don't think the above list is sufficient. Seems like our slippery slope should include the following:

right to blame media, teachers, school bullies and racial history for your children's screwups and take no ownership in raising your children (includes day care, nannies, etc.)

right to drive the best car possible

right to have a pool (or whirlpool)

right to a golf club, health club and spa memberships

right to free vacations (domestic only)

right to a kickass wardrobe and personal appearance keepup (haircuts, waxing, etc.)

right to ongoing post secondary education (including things like massage school, beauty school, etc.)

right to purchase a new TV, radio with all the subscriptions to all channels

right to a disposable income for those things you 'just can't live without'

right to a bidet (no one should have to actually wipe their own ass)

etc, etc, etc

[wist43]

All of this posturing about "positive" rights is a means to achieve unrestrained government, ala the USSR, Nazi Germany, Communist China, etc...

By the reconning of the left, the government should be the granter of rights; but what the government gives, the government can take away.

Our Founders viewed our rights as "God given"... "We are endowed by our Creator"... hence, since our rights come from God, no government can take them away.

The Constitution and the Bill of Rights is the most cleanly stated expression of freedom mankind has ever put to paper - b/c it doesn't restrict you and I AT ALL!!!! It restricts government from doing anything to us - that is FREEDOM!!!!!!

I love the 10th amendment, which in effect says, 'if we forgot anything, the government can't do that either'... I wish they could have put a smiley face on the end of that amendment - would have driven the lefties nuts

[HowardRoark]

Yet another reason why I keep and bear arms. Oh....and Hussein supports this? Sure thing Ayn.

You better stock up on ammuntion while you can.

Just start reading.....grab a big cup of coffee and start reading the words this guy actually says. NOT the words he says while he is playing the role of the shepherd......the off the cuff remarks over the years.

[mraynrand]

I love the 10th amendment, which in effect says, 'if we forgot anything, the government can't do that either'... I wish they could have put a smiley face on the end of that amendment - would have driven the lefties nuts

While I agree with you, I did have a discussion a while back that the 10th has essentially gone bye-bye. Technically, if the 10th is followed, the legislature should be able to do virtually nothing. Still, we've seen massive expansion of governmental intrusion - all in violation of a strict interpretation of the 10th. Is the 10th meaningless?

[Cy]

How can a good or service be a right, when said good or service, by definition, needs to be (a) thought up and (b) produced, and there is no guarantee that either of things will necessarily happen, especially under a system that discourages the incentive to do it? "At gun point" can force production, but not thought. And the value of that production will be increasingly diminished returns, as we see under every collectivist state.

A good or service is not inherent to humanity. Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are. Rights are not given; they are born with.

But when an entire nation has been mesmerized through the manipulation of a certain narrative (the meta-narrative of the noble black man whose "plight" has given him divine, unearthly wisdom), there's no hope for reason to prevail.

[mraynrand]

Oh....and Hussein supports this? Sure thing Ayn.

He believes Health care and a good education are Rights. He has stated that directly. Those are on the list. What else need I provide to prove it to you. Start looking it up. Read the DNC platform.

[Cy]

So what then?

So let's play with some scenarios. Obama wins. First 100 days brings us nightmare scenario: socialism. That's the optimistic scnerio. The terrifying scenerio is Obama gets tested as Biden predicts. Major terrorist attack happens. Obama institutes marshal law or something along those lines, in edition to all the FDR first 100 days stuff.

Where does that leave us...

1. Do we have the will, the drive, the mettle, the organizational integrity to foster a rebellion of some sorts? Just say the word "militia" and you immediately are categorized in the nutty camp.

2. Would business leaders, police officials, courgeous government leaders join up and basically say, "We're not going along with your socialist agenda"? And pockets of rebellion across the land lead to a general reaction against socialism. I can't imagine this.

3. Could we see a mass migration to certain states that might promise hope of secession. Perhaps the South, joining the West, will swell with the "South will rise again" pride, and save the Republic. Of these three scenarios, I could most possibly see this.

What rather seems more likely, unfortunately (if you track history) is the following scenario...

Obama the shaman-magician gains control, introduces socialism, and it becomes embedded into our psyche. Conservatives will be relegated to what the conservatives in Britain and Germany are, pining for something that will never happen, sort of the way someone may pine for the gold standard today.

Our nation basically follows the path of France, slowly losing its importance, its drive, its economic dominance, and eventually, its military might. With increased immigration and small native American birth rate, we slowly become a slightly more European version of Brazil.

But traditional Anglo-Americanism and its notion of rights basically dies with a whimper, much in the way the Roman and British Empires died, because those who ought to have defended it gave into the apathetic attitude that has inflicted our entire nation.

How many of us, when it really came down to it, would be willing to pull a trigger and kill a man, in order to defend the constitution? Especially if it potentially meant harm for our families.

We are Weimar, 1930.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

^^^^
Officially off the deep end.

[Freak Out]

Yet another reason why I keep and bear arms. Oh....and Hussein supports this? Sure thing Ayn.

You better stock up on ammuntion while you can.

Just start reading.....grab a big cup of coffee and start reading the words this guy actually says. NOT the words he says while he is playing the role of the shepherd......the off the cuff remarks over the years.

I'm not talking about the second bill of rights....I quoted Palmer's Louis XIV wanderings. You know damn well that the "Second bill of rights" will never come to pass. Could a national healthcare law of some kind be passed? Sure...will it be some radical change from what we have now? Fuck no because there is way to much money to be made and that's the driving force in DC. More BS fear mongering that some radical "Red" takeover is imminent in the USA.

[Freak Out]

Re: So what then?

3. Could we see a mass migration to certain states that might promise hope of secession. Perhaps the South, joining the West, will swell with the "South will rise again" pride, and save the Republic. Of these three scenarios, I could most possibly see this.

I salivate at the thought of secession.

[packinpatland]

There's going to be the issue of taxes.............don't expect any revenue from the Feds.

[mraynrand]

Re: So what then?

Conservatives will be relegated to what the conservatives in Britain and Germany are, pining for something that will never happen, sort of the way someone may pine for the gold standard today.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r69CQAUrkqQ