Second Bill of (Positive) Rights

[texaspackerbacker]

Re: So what then?

So let's play with some scenarios. Obama wins. First 100 days brings us nightmare scenario: socialism. That's the optimistic scnerio. The terrifying scenerio is Obama gets tested as Biden predicts. Major terrorist attack happens. Obama institutes marshal law or something along those lines, in edition to all the FDR first 100 days stuff.

Where does that leave us...

1. Do we have the will, the drive, the mettle, the organizational integrity to foster a rebellion of some sorts? Just say the word "militia" and you immediately are categorized in the nutty camp.

2. Would business leaders, police officials, courgeous government leaders join up and basically say, "We're not going along with your socialist agenda"? And pockets of rebellion across the land lead to a general reaction against socialism. I can't imagine this.

3. Could we see a mass migration to certain states that might promise hope of secession. Perhaps the South, joining the West, will swell with the "South will rise again" pride, and save the Republic. Of these three scenarios, I could most possibly see this.

What rather seems more likely, unfortunately (if you track history) is the following scenario...

Obama the shaman-magician gains control, introduces socialism, and it becomes embedded into our psyche. Conservatives will be relegated to what the conservatives in Britain and Germany are, pining for something that will never happen, sort of the way someone may pine for the gold standard today.

Our nation basically follows the path of France, slowly losing its importance, its drive, its economic dominance, and eventually, its military might. With increased immigration and small native American birth rate, we slowly become a slightly more European version of Brazil.

But traditional Anglo-Americanism and its notion of rights basically dies with a whimper, much in the way the Roman and British Empires died, because those who ought to have defended it gave into the apathetic attitude that has inflicted our entire nation.

How many of us, when it really came down to it, would be willing to pull a trigger and kill a man, in order to defend the constitution? Especially if it potentially meant harm for our families.

We are Weimar, 1930.

Cy, your passion and, indeed, the substance of your post is admirable. Unfortunately, the latter of your scenarios would be what happens--the former smacks of revolution, and would probably get a lot of good people executed for treason.

The fact is, though, America has survived shitstorms like this before. Roosevelt's New Deal, reinforced by an unhealthy dose of New Frontier and Great Society, culminated by the near fatal to America horrors of the Carter years basically saw the people conditioned to see at least one definition of socialism as normalcy.

When the viable alternative came along--Reagan--however, America quickly embraced the truth and threw out the scoundrels. Granted, it wouldn't be as easy this time around, as the left learns from its blunders--tactical blunders, anyway--like assuming America would NOT follow Reagan and taking him too lightly. They already have things planned like the Fairness Doctrine to try and perpetuate Obama's extremist crap.

The truly scary thing about the scenario you describe is the terrorism aspect. As I said, America could survive the mere inflicting of Obama-esque socialism. The terrorism angle, though, really could destroy our whole way of life--and THAT becomes extremely more likely with an Obama presidency.

Let's postpone this discussion a week or so, Cy. There's still a degree of hope that the polls are flawed and America still has a chance.

[wist43]

I love the 10th amendment, which in effect says, 'if we forgot anything, the government can't do that either'... I wish they could have put a smiley face on the end of that amendment - would have driven the lefties nuts

While I agree with you, I did have a discussion a while back that the 10th has essentially gone bye-bye. Technically, if the 10th is followed, the legislature should be able to do virtually nothing. Still, we've seen massive expansion of governmental intrusion - all in violation of a strict interpretation of the 10th. Is the 10th meaningless?

Don't know how anyone can conclude that the 10th amendement hamstrings the federal government from carrying out its enumerated powers???

The entire point of the Constitution is to limit the Federal government to its enumerated powers. There are plenty of things that the Constitution does empower the federal government to do. All the 10th says, is that if a power isn't specifically granted to the federal government by the Constitution, then the federal government can't do it. Pretty straight forward.

That said, there is an amendment process, which is decidedly undemocratic... as it should be. It should not be easy to change the Constitution, lest it be nothing more than perishable paper, subject to the whim of the majority. Hence, a super-majority is needed to change it.

Of course, leftists have always found this to be untenable - hence, the tortured interpretations that are promoted by the courts, and taught in our schools.

The genie was let out of the bottle decades ago.

[wist43]

Re: So what then?

So let's play with some scenarios. Obama wins. First 100 days brings us nightmare scenario: socialism. That's the optimistic scnerio. The terrifying scenerio is Obama gets tested as Biden predicts. Major terrorist attack happens. Obama institutes marshal law or something along those lines, in edition to all the FDR first 100 days stuff.

Where does that leave us...

1. Do we have the will, the drive, the mettle, the organizational integrity to foster a rebellion of some sorts? Just say the word "militia" and you immediately are categorized in the nutty camp.

2. Would business leaders, police officials, courgeous government leaders join up and basically say, "We're not going along with your socialist agenda"? And pockets of rebellion across the land lead to a general reaction against socialism. I can't imagine this.

3. Could we see a mass migration to certain states that might promise hope of secession. Perhaps the South, joining the West, will swell with the "South will rise again" pride, and save the Republic. Of these three scenarios, I could most possibly see this.

What rather seems more likely, unfortunately (if you track history) is the following scenario...

Obama the shaman-magician gains control, introduces socialism, and it becomes embedded into our psyche. Conservatives will be relegated to what the conservatives in Britain and Germany are, pining for something that will never happen, sort of the way someone may pine for the gold standard today.

Our nation basically follows the path of France, slowly losing its importance, its drive, its economic dominance, and eventually, its military might. With increased immigration and small native American birth rate, we slowly become a slightly more European version of Brazil.

But traditional Anglo-Americanism and its notion of rights basically dies with a whimper, much in the way the Roman and British Empires died, because those who ought to have defended it gave into the apathetic attitude that has inflicted our entire nation.

How many of us, when it really came down to it, would be willing to pull a trigger and kill a man, in order to defend the constitution? Especially if it potentially meant harm for our families.

We are Weimar, 1930.

Cy, your passion and, indeed, the substance of your post is admirable. Unfortunately, the latter of your scenarios would be what happens--the former smacks of revolution, and would probably get a lot of good people executed for treason.

The fact is, though, America has survived shitstorms like this before. Roosevelt's New Deal, reinforced by an unhealthy dose of New Frontier and Great Society, culminated by the near fatal to America horrors of the Carter years basically saw the people conditioned to see at least one definition of socialism as normalcy.

When the viable alternative came along--Reagan--however, America quickly embraced the truth and threw out the scoundrels. Granted, it wouldn't be as easy this time around, as the left learns from its blunders--tactical blunders, anyway--like assuming America would NOT follow Reagan and taking him too lightly. They already have things planned like the Fairness Doctrine to try and perpetuate Obama's extremist crap.

The truly scary thing about the scenario you describe is the terrorism aspect. As I said, America could survive the mere inflicting of Obama-esque socialism. The terrorism angle, though, really could destroy our whole way of life--and THAT becomes extremely more likely with an Obama presidency.

Let's postpone this discussion a week or so, Cy. There's still a degree of hope that the polls are flawed and America still has a chance.

Nice posts guys...

Cy, I've dreamed of a group of states joining in secession - but look how that went over the first time it was tried??? Force. To leftists, doesn't matter what stripe, it's all about control and force.

Tex, it is true that we've survivied idiots in the past, but we are at a tipping point, a point we have been brought to deliberately. An Obama presidency will reshape the judiciary sufficiently, I fear, to the point where we will never recover. Radical interpretations of the Constitution, far worse than we've ever seen, lifelong Federal appointments, on top of the damage that has already been done... I don't think we recover as a nation.

The average dolt going merrily to the polls and voting for Obama, has no idea what they're doing, which is exactly why democracy is so dangerous. An Obama presidency will effictively kill freedom, or our chances of recovering our freedoms b/c of the institutional damage he will be able to do.

If any states start a secession movement... I'm on board

[mraynrand]

Don't know how anyone can conclude that the 10th amendement hamstrings the federal government from carrying out its enumerated powers???

The entire point of the Constitution is to limit the Federal government to its enumerated powers.

What I was saying was that much of what the legislature does goes beyond the enumerated powers.

[wist43]

Don't know how anyone can conclude that the 10th amendement hamstrings the federal government from carrying out its enumerated powers???

The entire point of the Constitution is to limit the Federal government to its enumerated powers.

What I was saying was that much of what the legislature does goes beyond the enumerated powers.

Of course.

And they get away with it b/c the electorate is completely ignorant. Each generation of Americans has been progressively dumbed down to the point where we are today.

As I said, I gave up arguing politics a while ago... as the old saying goes, "You can't argue with an idiot, they'll drag you down and beat you with experience".

I will discuss principle, but in the end, that is futile as well b/c there are so few of us that understand the principles of freedom. As minorities go, we're the smallest minority group in the country - by far.

And so it goes in the world of political "debate"... even if you do find two people on opposite sides of the aisle who can discuss "issues" respectfully, I would argue that the "issues" are more often than not, false issues - b/c, as we've been discussing, most of the actions the Federal government engages in, are unConstitutional acts to begin with, i.e. illegal.

[texaspackerbacker]

Wist and Cy, I'm just a tad bit less negative than you guys.

While the chance of terrorist hits is severely upgraded with Obama, it still is probably less than a 50/50 thing.

And I'm not sure I agree about the tipping point thing. I'm not sure how old you guys are, and how well you remember the pre-Reagan years, but it was more than just a few idiots. It was total domination--and total acceptance by the people--the concept cy referred to of people being conditioned to accept socialism--at least that definition of it--as normalcy. We not only survived it, but snapped back quickly when the Great Communicator came along and supplanted the leftist mainstream media as the dominant source of truth.

I don't exactly see another Reagan on the horizon, though, and as we can recall, it took 16 years from when he showed up until he was actually able to do anything.

Also, McCain ain't dead yet--not quite, anyway.

[wist43]

Wist and Cy, I'm just a tad bit less negative than you guys.

While the chance of terrorist hits is severely upgraded with Obama, it still is probably less than a 50/50 thing.

And I'm not sure I agree about the tipping point thing. I'm not sure how old you guys are, and how well you remember the pre-Reagan years, but it was more than just a few idiots. It was total domination--and total acceptance by the people--the concept cy referred to of people being conditioned to accept socialism--at least that definition of it--as normalcy. We not only survived it, but snapped back quickly when the Great Communicator came along and supplanted the leftist mainstream media as the dominant source of truth.

I don't exactly see another Reagan on the horizon, though, and as we can recall, it took 16 years from when he showed up until he was actually able to do anything.

Also, McCain ain't dead yet--not quite, anyway.

I don't factor in terrorism, simply b/c I view it as nothing more than a tool of the left, and as such a constant.

As for my tipping point comment, I understand your pointing to the post-Carter years, and that is certainly valid; however, and what I see as different today, is that all of those damaging policies, at least institutionally remained on the books.

Reagan was able to lower tax rates, interest rates, etc... and jump start the economy, but all of the successes of the left in terms of growing government institutionally remained - not to mention we are a couple of generations further down the road, i.e. two/three generations futher dumbed down away from Americanist principles.

It's been a while since I've picked up a HS text book, but the last time I did it was nauseating. Each generation has been progressively spoon fed more and more dispicable lies and distortions, to the point where we have citizens today who are incapable of recognizing or understanding truth.

As I've said, it is my hope that I can live out my days as a free man, w/o ending up in a gulag, or living in some government assigned tenement, but realistically, I'm not sure I'm going to make.

I'm a 45 year old white man... I'm the enemy. My industry, the fruits of my labor are to be targetted for "redistribution". As we spiral down the socialist path, an economically unsustainable path, I fully expect to be targetted in every other way as well, not just economically.

Who knows... maybe I'll make to my 80th birthday and still be living a relatively free existance... I hope so; but, I'm not holding my breath.

[texaspackerbacker]

Very interesting.

I see terrorism as the only fatal threat, and I see the current economic situation as the "tool of the left"--a contrived pseudo-crisis.

You know, nobody has more animosity toward leftists on all levels than I do, but even I wouldn't accuse them of being conspiratorially involved in 9/11-type attacks--complicit by ignorance and wrongheaded policies, yes, but not making the attacks happen--as "tool of the left" implies.

And that being the case, it's imperative that we continue what has been thusfar successful in preventing repeats of 9/11--which Obama is adamant in not doing.

While I agree with you, wist, wholeheartedly about the education establishment, entertainment, and other forces dumbing down the country and tearing away at the moral and philosophical fiber of America, I see that as like parasites from within that don't kill the host--even though they do tend to drag it down.

The terrorism, on the other hand, is like an outside predator that could kill our way of life.

[HowardRoark]

I see that as like parasites from within that don't kill the host--even though they do tend to drag it down.

The host has become the parasite.....

[Cy]

Optimistic Appraisal visavis the Texas Packer Dude

OK, I appreciated the "step away from the ledge" tone from the Texas Packer Dude.

I've been reading "The Forgotten Man," and I'm struck at how blatantly socialist some of the rhetoric was in the early 20th century. And it is true, the Carter era was truly an era of broadly assumed collectivism. So here's my optimistic scenario:

1.) First, much needs to be observed that Obama has to "tack right" in order to win. He's trying to get to the right of McCain on taxes! Once this plays out, and America sees it as (a) a lie, because it cannot be done and he'll have to back down on his tax shell game, or (b) as a handout, which essentially it will be. Americans are skeptical about getting checks from the government. We don't like handouts, at least in the Middle Class, in which the vast majority claims to be.

2.) Second, all the ACORN, Wright, Palestinian, etc. stuff should trickle out after the election. The media needs material, after all. With calmer passions and once their man is in, they may return to a pretense of objectivity. (I'm least hopeful about this)

3.) All hell will break loose if Obama begins the push toward socialized medicine, and that will lead to a 1994-esque rout in 2010, setting up for a Palin or Jindal rout in 2012.

4.) There's no rule that says, "Once socialism goes into effect, you can't get rid of it." Why not? It's happening in Chile. It will HAVE to be done all over the globe in areas that have had it for decades, simply to survive. As these economies privatize and become more nimble, their successes will certainly be noticed by Americans, who are not so stuck in the past, and are more willing to accept dramatic change (obviously!) than other countries.

5.) If someone, anyone, a lawyer or the media, does their job on all the election fraud, that will not sit will with many people.

6.) The "youth vote" will soon have real jobs...and then become conservatives, as generally happens. Why, I remember my brother complaining about Reagan and his "flipping hamburger jobs" that he created; this was when he was in college. Then he got into the real world and now he's just to the right of Genghis Kahn. Especially after the HUGE crash that the youth will experience after this election -- WHO said "WE WON"T BE FOOLED AGAIN"? -- they will have some great testimonials for the more cynical generations (Reagan kid's kids) coming up behind them.

[texaspackerbacker]

Re: Optimistic Appraisal visavis the Texas Packer Dude

OK, I appreciated the "step away from the ledge" tone from the Texas Packer Dude.

I've been reading "The Forgotten Man," and I'm struck at how blatantly socialist some of the rhetoric was in the early 20th century. And it is true, the Carter era was truly an era of broadly assumed collectivism. So here's my optimistic scenario:

1.) First, much needs to be observed that Obama has to "tack right" in order to win. He's trying to get to the right of McCain on taxes! Once this plays out, and America sees it as (a) a lie, because it cannot be done and he'll have to back down on his tax shell game, or (b) as a handout, which essentially it will be. Americans are skeptical about getting checks from the government. We don't like handouts, at least in the Middle Class, in which the vast majority claims to be.

2.) Second, all the ACORN, Wright, Palestinian, etc. stuff should trickle out after the election. The media needs material, after all. With calmer passions and once their man is in, they may return to a pretense of objectivity. (I'm least hopeful about this)

3.) All hell will break loose if Obama begins the push toward socialized medicine, and that will lead to a 1994-esque rout in 2010, setting up for a Palin or Jindal rout in 2012.

4.) There's no rule that says, "Once socialism goes into effect, you can't get rid of it." Why not? It's happening in Chile. It will HAVE to be done all over the globe in areas that have had it for decades, simply to survive. As these economies privatize and become more nimble, their successes will certainly be noticed by Americans, who are not so stuck in the past, and are more willing to accept dramatic change (obviously!) than other countries.

5.) If someone, anyone, a lawyer or the media, does their job on all the election fraud, that will not sit will with many people.

6.) The "youth vote" will soon have real jobs...and then become conservatives, as generally happens. Why, I remember my brother complaining about Reagan and his "flipping hamburger jobs" that he created; this was when he was in college. Then he got into the real world and now he's just to the right of Genghis Kahn. Especially after the HUGE crash that the youth will experience after this election -- WHO said "WE WON"T BE FOOLED AGAIN"? -- they will have some great testimonials for the more cynical generations (Reagan kid's kids) coming up behind them.

I don't really have any substantial disagreement with any of what you said--just a couple of comments:

First, all of that is contingent on not having all that we know and love destroyed by terrorist hits on Obama's watch.

Secondly, having people see Obama's "tax cuts for 95%" as a lie is not as automatic as it ought to be because the sleazy assholes of the leftist mainstream media will do everything in their power to obscure the truth--as they always do and are so effective at. Ditto that for any momentum getting generated for Palin or Jindal.

I hate to say anything negative about the judgment of the American people, as they have defied the pollsters and media and bailed out the country several times--Reagan, the Gingrich Congress, and both times W was elected. Just the same, I don't share your optimism about these dumbass youth for Obama voters getting "buyer's remorse". I'd wager that most of the fools don't even know what he stands for, and it will be just as easy for the media to convince them of false success as it was to hoodwink them to vote for Obama in the first place.

Howard, the "host" is all of us--America defined as the people of the country, as a rival poster of mine in another forum used to say. The parasites I referred to are the education establishment, entertainment, etc., and they most certainly are not us--the people of America.