Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Is health care a right?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Is health care a right?

    I would like someone to explain to me how something that is subject to the law of scarcity can be a right.

    What I mean is simply this:

    Those things that are subject to the law of scarcity are by definition the purview of economics, and as such they are goods and services. We cannot, for instance, have a right to a trip to the moon, to gold, or to a cigarette boat. The law of scarcity prevents that from happening.

    Rights, by contrast, are things that are universally shared. By virtue of being born, by having property, and by having life, we are granted the rights of life, liberty, and property. The only thing getting in the way of the universal enjoyment of our natural rights is not the law of scarcity, but the laws of tyrants. Tomorrow, if every government would agree, the whole world could enjoy full human rights without the exhaustion of a single resource.

    Further, goods and services require person A to provide something for person B. If something is going to be called a right which is a good or service, then whoever person A happens to be would be the provider of that right.

    In other words, rights, as historically understood, are seen to be endowed by our Creator, by nature, or by some universal entity bigger than man and his conventions.

    Rights, as we are now beginning to understand them, are increasingly being seen as something endowed by other people, like doctors, or farmers, or most significantly, by the government.

    But that's what happens when what was historically seen as rights is broadened to include goods and services.

    So, if I have a right to what you alone are able to give...can you all see the dangers of this and where this is going?

    The dangers of broadening this understanding of rights occurs precisely at the "Person A giving to Person B" point, because in the end, the government will never be Person A (because they are not in the business of goods and services), therefore they will necessarily have to FORCE another person, Person A, to give to Person B.

    And any argument for rights that ends up with a collective body forcing a human being to be a producer of something for the sake of another is (a) immoral, and (b) doesn't work.

    Why will it not work? Because in the end, Person A's mind cannot be tapped into and exploited. If we all have the right to the knowledge in Person A's mind concerning, say, treatment of cancer, we can make all the laws and use all the guns to force him to unload that knowledge for our sakes, but in the end, it is his choice. And under a system where he is forced to betray the intelligence of his profession, because it is claimed that the product of his mind is not his own, but belongs, by right, to others, he will very likely not be so keen to do so.

    Where am I wrong?

  • #2
    Because you don't die on the floor of a California emergency room from being denied a trip to the moon. It doesn't cause you pain. A doctor's care is not scarce.

    How is the right to free speech endowed by our creator? It's endowed by our Constitution.

    Or the right to gun ownership? Guns most certainly cause pain, damage health and cause the need for healthcare. By your logic, though, keeping weapons is not a right.
    "Greatness is not an act... but a habit.Greatness is not an act... but a habit." -Greg Jennings

    Comment


    • #3
      If "they" are taking my money to fund "their" (Fed, State, Local/Muni) healthcare plan/pension then it is my right to get the same. Should we as a nation help those that are less fortunate and supply healthcare to them even if they have no real income to contribute? Yes.
      C.H.U.D.

      Comment


      • #4
        Where are you wrong?

        I am trying to get a response from one of these assholes, but they are being all standoffish and giving me the silent treatment.

        After lunch the players lounged about the hotel patio watching the surf fling white plumes high against the darkening sky. Clouds were piling up in the west… Vince Lombardi frowned.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by MJZiggy
          Because you don't die on the floor of a California emergency room from being denied a trip to the moon. It doesn't cause you pain. A doctor's care is not scarce.

          How is the right to free speech endowed by our creator? It's endowed by our Constitution.

          Or the right to gun ownership? Guns most certainly cause pain, damage health and cause the need for healthcare. By your logic, though, keeping weapons is not a right.
          This is the way the world ends, not with a bang, but a whimper.
          "Never, never ever support a punk like mraynrand. Rather be as I am and feel real sympathy for his sickness." - Woodbuck

          Comment


          • #6
            Cy, you are so 18th century. The world has changed. Brightness is shining upon us.

            Once the supreme court is properly staffed, things will get even better, with expanded rights that, as Ziggy said, will be endowed by the equal protection clause of the 14th Amendment. Please turn in all your monies on the way to paradise.

            "Never, never ever support a punk like mraynrand. Rather be as I am and feel real sympathy for his sickness." - Woodbuck

            Comment


            • #7
              After lunch the players lounged about the hotel patio watching the surf fling white plumes high against the darkening sky. Clouds were piling up in the west… Vince Lombardi frowned.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by MJZiggy
                Because you don't die on the floor of a California emergency room from being denied a trip to the moon. It doesn't cause you pain. A doctor's care is not scarce.

                How is the right to free speech endowed by our creator? It's endowed by our Constitution.

                Or the right to gun ownership? Guns most certainly cause pain, damage health and cause the need for healthcare. By your logic, though, keeping weapons is not a right.
                Rights end where anothers right begins.

                A right to free speech or gun ownership does NOT infringe on your rights. A right to healthcare infringes on a doctors right to charge the top rate he can get for his services. It infringes on my right to pay REASONABLE income taxes. It infringes on my right to choose my provider.

                That being said we have infringed on rights a ton. We have programs that in no way should be allowed. There are certain things that are not "rights" but better society as a whole and therefore are virtuous (can't believe I give the liberals that). I don't view gov't takeover of an industry as virtuous ever. Our gov't has proven they can't efficiently do things like run SS (take, hold, give back in 40+ years), I have no faith in the gov't to run anything. As a matter of fact I can think of VERY few cases where its ok to infringe on the rights of few to benefit the masses.

                edit: guns don't cause pain, people do. I could argue that knives cause all the same things....wanna ban those too?
                The only time success comes before work is in the dictionary -- Vince Lombardi

                Comment


                • #9
                  Deja vu all over again?
                  C.H.U.D.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Imagine this...

                    No electricity for a facility to provide care. No medical device or drug industry.

                    No doctors or nurses available or willing to provide care because they are state employees by virtue of a right.

                    I'd really like to argue those who say everything should be available - especially watching the numbers of qualified docs and nurses are dwindling (it's as big a risk as paying for care - trust me).

                    Furthermore, watch the number of ERs closing (but what of emtala and access to care - that is a right)... look at LA over the last 6 years for an example of poor management of HC and lack of funding from the primary users of the service.

                    HC is a service because 'it' is defined by the number of facilities, beds, equipment, infrastructure and most importantly - people.

                    To make HC a right - you'd have to take over the entire structure - not just give a tax credit or increase taxes to fund social programs. You'd have to determine the optimal or maximum about of benefit and fully front the cost. You'd also be eliminating free market effects and medical advances in the 'right'. You'd need to find/train/retain talent.

                    Should we cover for uninsured - mostly. Access to medical emergencies, police/fire depts, flight for life, etc... - yes. Urgent/Emergent - maybe. Elective - nope. Preventative - debatable. Cosmetic - never.

                    Debate the breakdown of the number of uninsured by age, job status, etc...

                    Also, research how employee based HC coverage started (Ford, 20th century, response to gov't regulation). Now, this sort of coverage has greatly expanded access to care and the payoffs for those wanting to provide services (docs, nurses, admin, tech, etc.)...

                    I could keep going, too.
                    The measure of who we are is what we do with what we have.
                    Vince Lombardi

                    "Not really interested in being a spoiler or an underdog. We're the Green Bay Packers." McCarthy.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Freak Out
                      Deja vu all over again?
                      Yep. Looks that way.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Fosco33
                        Imagine this...

                        No electricity for a facility to provide care. No medical device or drug industry.

                        No doctors or nurses available or willing to provide care because they are state employees by virtue of a right.

                        I could keep going, too.
                        Who ever said anything about making "all health care workers" State employees?
                        C.H.U.D.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Freak, somehow they've changed a simple insurance network into communism. I wonder if they realize that the government already insures 2.8 million federal workers...All those damn federal doctors.

                          Best I can tell, the only doctors employed by the government to administer care are working for the VA. Wait a minute, that's right. No doctors would work for the VA because they'd be state workers and not get top dollar. Wait a minute, who's running Bethesda Naval Hospital? It's a big building and the lights are on...

                          To read this forum, you would think the whole place was a hard-core conservative, religious right extremist board. McCain didn't even win the PackerRats vote. I'm sorry to tell you guys this, but the guy who ran on a healthcare and economic reform platform won the election. Even here in the Romper Room. There will be some form of health coverage for people. (and I'll bet we even get a couple years of Obama leadership before the economy im-- um. Well, Let's just look at it and say he can't do much worse and if you tell me that it wasn't Bush's fault then I guess he can't make much difference. Either way, it's his ship to steer. Those of you who want to cry iceberg, please just let the rest of us enjoy the party on the deck while we can.
                          "Greatness is not an act... but a habit.Greatness is not an act... but a habit." -Greg Jennings

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by MJZiggy
                            To read this forum, you would think the whole place was a hard-core conservative, religious right extremist board.
                            How many hard-core conservative, religious right extremist boards do you read for comparison?
                            "Never, never ever support a punk like mraynrand. Rather be as I am and feel real sympathy for his sickness." - Woodbuck

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by MJZiggy
                              I'm sorry to tell you guys this, but the guy who ran on a healthcare and economic reform platform won the election. Even here in the Romper Room. There will be some form of health coverage for people.
                              THANK OBAMA! Because we know that no one has coverage right now.
                              "Never, never ever support a punk like mraynrand. Rather be as I am and feel real sympathy for his sickness." - Woodbuck

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X