62% to 31%

[texaspackerbacker]

Isreal is in a no-win situation.

I doubt they will achieve very much by this war.

I am not following the situation too closely because it is all so gloomy and hopeless. It bothers me that the Europeans and Arabs expect Isreal to accept terms that will lead to its destruction. Isreal had very foolish policies from 1985-2005, the expansion into Gaza and West Bank brought on much of this mess.

Obama will be pro-Israel, not much different from Bush.

A lot of good discussion over this whole issue.

Harlan, I disagree with pretty much all of this. Israel has learned a lot since they took on Hezbollah in Lebanon a few years ago. They seem to be carrying out a highly successful little war here. Their goal is simply to alleviate the genocidal threat to their people from this rocket-launching/suicide bombing terrorist enemy, and they are well on the way to accomplishing that.

Gloomy? This reminds me a little bit of '67 and '73 when about the only geopolitical good news in the world was Israel succeeding in its wars. We had to restrain them back then because of Cold War considerations that do not exist now. Hence, Bush--and Obama by his silence--have allowed our old attack dog to show its teeth and kick the crap out of Hamas and the Palestinians.

Ziggy, your post smacked of typical liberal naivete. Are you really that blind to the Good versus Evil aspect here--and the world in general? Israel has bent over backwards to prevent harm to innocents--while this sick evil terrorist enemy has deliberately done the classic bad guy thing of placing its terrorist assets--the warehouses and launch sites for the rockets--right in the middle of population centers, schools, mosques, etc. Hamas, on the other hand, as our and Israel's enemies have done for a couple of generations now, have intentionally been cowardly enough to attack innocent civilians. Yet you whine about Israel being a bully and act like it's all a matter of two morally equivalent forces battling each other. Get real!

Partial, there is, of course, a religious aspect to the establishment of modern Israel in the same geographic setting as Biblical Israel. While it might have been expedient to put it in Germany or the American west or wherever, that would not have satisfied the Jews (and large number of Christians too) who wanted it put where it is. And if it comes down to choosing whether to cater to the wishes of one side or the other, America certainly ought to go with our Judeo-Christian heritage over Muslims, who have set themselves up as enemies of western civilization pretty much since the time of Mohammed.

[Freak Out]

Anyone remember Muhammad Atta? In 1996 he saw news footage of a similar incident and wrote out a martyrdom will that same night.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/4162193/Gaza-medics-describe-horror-of-strike-which-killed-70.html

It just goes on and on and on.....

It doesn't matter who has the right to drop a bomb or fire a shell or a rocket civilians will always pay the highest price in any conflict like this....and sometimes someone else pays again many years later.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

The whole concept of Israel pisses me right the f off. They are the cause of so many problems, and it would have worked out if they had taken the land from Germany as part of ww2.

How does the concept of Israel piss you off? Also, how the heck is Israel a concept? It's been a nation longer than most in the world has ever been a country. It has the right to peacefully exist just like Switzerland.

They took land that didn't belong to them and claimed it as there own. They are the cause of so many wars in the middle east. That's the kind of crap that pisses me off.

Yes, I realize thats how America was founded.

First, dipshit, they didn't take anything and claim anything. You have no idea what you are talking about.

Cause? So, their very existence is justified grounds for war?

[SkinBasket]

Fat neo nazis piss me off.

[sheepshead]

Fat neo nazis piss me off.

HAAAAAAAAAAAA

[Joemailman]

The whole concept of Israel pisses me right the f off. They are the cause of so many problems, and it would have worked out if they had taken the land from Germany as part of ww2.

When the state of Israel was being formed, part of the Arab argument was "Why should we have to give up land because of what the Germans did to the Jews?" They felt Germany should have to provide land for a Jewish state. The argument had some validity at the time, but it's water under the bridge now.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

The whole concept of Israel pisses me right the f off. They are the cause of so many problems, and it would have worked out if they had taken the land from Germany as part of ww2.

When the state of Israel was being formed, part of the Arab argument was "Why should we have to give up land because of what the Germans did to the Jews?" They felt Germany should have to provide land for a Jewish state. The argument had some validity at the time, but it's water under the bridge now.

Giving up land? Hilarious. How long had they "owned" the land. Certainly not by a country.

I think you need a quick refresher in the ottoman empire and how it was divided by the europeans, British Mandate for Palestine, and the Balfour Declaration of 1917.

As for real ownership, jews owned quite a bit prior to the state being formed. Jews owned half the urban land, more rural land that was occupied and had structures on it, and close to half the citrus land.

The great disparity of land ownership was in ownership of uncultivable land.

Regardless of the creation of Israel, jews were moving there, starting business and thriving compared to Arabs in Palestine.

[texaspackerbacker]

I started this thread genuinely wondering whether our forum leftists would be as anti-Israel as they always are anti-American, anti-free enterprise, anti-Christian, and anti-just about everything else that is good.

Well, Tyrone, I have to say I am pleasantly surprised at your take about Israel. I've known Jewish liberals who were like that--extreme left on everything else, but pro-Israel, but it's pretty rare in general for those of you of the leftist persuasion.

I hope it doesn't all turn out to be a big pile of ..... sarcasm on your part.

[mraynrand]

I started this thread genuinely wondering whether our forum leftists would be as anti-Israel as they always are anti-American, anti-free enterprise, anti-Christian, and anti-just about everything else that is good.

Well, Tyrone, I have to say I am pleasantly surprised at your take about Israel. I've known Jewish liberals who were like that--extreme left on everything else, but pro-Israel, but it's pretty rare in general for those of you of the leftist persuasion.

I hope it doesn't all turn out to be a big pile of ..... sarcasm on your part.

Don't count your liberals before they've hatched. Ty was just trying to inject some truth into the thread - about the reality of how Jewish folks were returning to Palestine and buying and improving the land since the end of the 19th century. It should also be noted that the Palestinian population today is greater in Israel than it has ever been in that area and is also one of the best places to live for a Palestinian (Compared to the shithole 'refugee camps' in countries like Lebanon, the west bank, and of course, Gaza).

On a related note, Israel in a way shot themselves in the foot. They helped to promote Hamas as a way of bothering other radical Palestinian groups, like the PLO. Kinda like the U.S. supporting the Taliban progenitors in Afghanistan to bother the Soviets. How did that kid's song go...

"I know an old lady who swallowed a spider,
That wriggled and jiggled and tickled inside her.
She swallowed the spider to catch the fly,
I don't know why she swallowed the fly,
Perhaps she'll die."

[arcilite]

I started this thread genuinely wondering whether our forum leftists would be as anti-Israel as they always are anti-American, anti-free enterprise, anti-Christian, and anti-just about everything else that is good.

Well, Tyrone, I have to say I am pleasantly surprised at your take about Israel. I've known Jewish liberals who were like that--extreme left on everything else, but pro-Israel, but it's pretty rare in general for those of you of the leftist persuasion.

I hope it doesn't all turn out to be a big pile of ..... sarcasm on your part.

I would say us American hating liberals are more anti-religion than anti-Christian.

[bobblehead]

I started this thread genuinely wondering whether our forum leftists would be as anti-Israel as they always are anti-American, anti-free enterprise, anti-Christian, and anti-just about everything else that is good.

Well, Tyrone, I have to say I am pleasantly surprised at your take about Israel. I've known Jewish liberals who were like that--extreme left on everything else, but pro-Israel, but it's pretty rare in general for those of you of the leftist persuasion.

I hope it doesn't all turn out to be a big pile of ..... sarcasm on your part.

I would say us American hating liberals are more anti-religion than anti-Christian.

I think not. The ACLU fought for a muslim lady in florida to be able to wear the head and face cover in her drivers liscence piture, but against damn near everything christian. It seems they will fight for every religion on the planet but basically do anything they can to stomp out christianity....its the reason an agnostic like myself backs christians in political circles. They get treated differently and I have been about equality my whole life.

[arcilite]

Christians always claim they are being oppressed or something along those lines. Thats what bothers me.

[mraynrand]

I haven't complained about oppression since they fed me to the lions (got better).

Don't you know that Christians have a long history of meting out Oppression - just think of the millions slaughtered, unprovoked, by Christians during the crusades...
Help Help, I'm being repressed!

[digitaldean]

Bloody peasant!!

[texaspackerbacker]

I started this thread genuinely wondering whether our forum leftists would be as anti-Israel as they always are anti-American, anti-free enterprise, anti-Christian, and anti-just about everything else that is good.

Well, Tyrone, I have to say I am pleasantly surprised at your take about Israel. I've known Jewish liberals who were like that--extreme left on everything else, but pro-Israel, but it's pretty rare in general for those of you of the leftist persuasion.

I hope it doesn't all turn out to be a big pile of ..... sarcasm on your part.

I would say us American hating liberals are more anti-religion than anti-Christian.

Probably true (or at least I thought so before reading BHead's post). The thing is, if you're in America, the primary religion for ya'all to hate is Christian. Besides, the others are wrong and eminently hateable anyway.

It is true, though, that there are at least as many America-hating leftists with the ACLU-like mentality BHead cited, as there are like you, arcilite, who are equal opportunity haters--just having more opporunity to hate Christians.

Anyway, it was refreshing to see that Tyrone's usual leftist hate-speak didn't spill over to Israel. How about you, arcilite--and the rest of you lefties too?