Real Modern Warfare

[Little Whiskey]

so what do you think of video's like this being released to the public? .....or leaked to the public.

http://www.wikileaks.com/

[Scott Campbell]

Fuck.

[red]

i don't care if you're killing innocent children or hitler, you gotta be a pretty sick fuck to take pleasure in killing people like these guys were IMO

[SkinBasket]

I think the video is stupid. It was edited then released by a totally biased entity, which failed to provide all the facts, such as the weapons carried by those who were with the journalists, and the fact that that group of people matched the description of opposition forces that our troops had been fighting in that area that day. It also ignores the fact that all the other, non-combatant Iraqis were off the street at the time because they knew there was a war being fought on the streets.

As far as the soldiers "taking pleasure" in the killings, we are in no position to judge the presumably private interactions between men trained to kill other men doing their job, especially on a video that provides such a slanted and narrow focus of what was happening in that area, on that day, in the context of a fucking WAR.

What the fuck do you people expect them to do over the radio? Ask for God's forgiveness every time they shoot a person? Lament their task as a soldier? Grow the fuck up. These are, for the most part, young adults who are dealing with their extremely difficult task the best way they know how. If that means emotionally disconnecting from the fact they are killing people, then so be it.

[Freak Out]

I saw the video a few days ago......as basket says it's war. If you don't like it or it upsets you do more to stop it. That's nothing.......

[hoosier]

I saw the video a few days ago......as basket says it's war. If you don't like it or it upsets you do more to stop it. That's nothing.......

Absolutely agree with these two points. Criticizing the shooters is misguided because it ignores the greater process that creates situations like these. The disgust that many of us feel when watching something like this is a product of our being relatively insulated from this kind of violence, no matter how informed we try to be. Reading about it in the paper is nothing compared to watching the body of a reporter getting blown into pieces by a machine gun because somebody up there in a helicopter fucked up. The only problem with your main point--if we don't like what we're seeing here, do more to stop the situation that produces moments like these--is that it is not clear that there is anything constructive that can be done about it. What are we supposed to do, stand on the street corner with yet another "War is Not the Answer" poster? Nor can we say that a US pull-out would put a stop to it. Things might well get much worse. So I agree completely with your sentiment, but I am not sure that the solution is a viable one.

[Maxie the Taxi]

I agree with SkinBasket.

War is hell. Once turned on our country's war machine becomes an efficient killing machine where moral values are turned upside down. In war there are no "innocent bystanders," only the dead and those that survive being killed. There are only two sides in a war: us and them -- us and those trying to kill us. And when a country becomes a battlefield every individual in the country becomes either an us or a them.

This is why our country should go to war on Constitutional grounds only, after a Congressional declaration of war. But it should not stop there. The idea that free individuals can be "drafted" to "fight for their country" is an unconstitutional travesty -- even after a proper declarations of war. If the cause is just, free men will fight. The military draft is dead and should remain so.

Moreover, any American expeditionary army should be financed totally by means of war bonds or voluntary contributions. The idea that an American expeditionary war can be financied by monies from the general tax fund or by inflation is a tragedy we pay for in blood. If a war is worth fighting, free men will not only fight it but finance it as well.

[Zool]

I think Kiwon's point is, should we even have access to this sort of video footage ever? I don't think we need to view this shit. I realize these things happen but I'm definitely not morbid enough to need to watch it happen.

[hoosier]

I think Kiwon's point is, should we even have access to this sort of video footage ever? I don't think we need to view this shit. I realize these things happen but I'm definitely not morbid enough to need to watch it happen.

You mean Little Whiskey?

To my mind there is a big difference between saying "I don't need to see this" (a personal choice that noone can argue with) and "I don't think anyone else should be able to see this" or "We should not allow this." You say morbid, and that implies that the only possible purpose for something like this is that somebody gets off on it. I am sure there are plenty of people who do, but (a) I have no desire to police other people's enjoyment no matter how sick it is, as long as it doesn't hurt others, and (b) censorship--which is what you are calling for--does much more than just limiting the sick pleasure of a few.

[Maxie the Taxi]

I think Kiwon's point is, should we even have access to this sort of video footage ever? I don't think we need to view this shit. I realize these things happen but I'm definitely not morbid enough to need to watch it happen.

The larger point is: Who gets to decide whether or not we "should" have access to this?

If such video exists in the public domain, individuals are free to watch it or not, and they are smart enough to draw their own conclusions.

If access is to be denied, by whom and why? The government? The very entity that has the power to wage war?

It's pretty much a known and accepted fact that the first project a power-lusting government or individual takes on is control of the media and free public information.

Why do you suppose that is?

[SkinBasket]

a reporter getting blown into pieces by a machine gun because somebody up there in a helicopter fucked up.

No one in the helicopter "fucked up." The rules of engagement were clearly followed and the gunner refrained from firing on the journalist as he crawled away.

If anything the journalists "fucked up." Not a great idea to hang out with a bunch of guys with RPGs and AK47s during a firefight.

[Freak Out]

I think the public should be able so see combat footage....but it should be filtered by a military/civilian board of some makeup to protect the privacy of our soldiers. These things are done in our name and the citizens need to be more aware of whats going on. It's pretty easy for the average citizen to become completely unaware of the conflicts we are engaged in.

To Maxi's point about the draft.....I've said before that I believe all US citizens should serve their country in some capacity for two-four years after high school....be it a branch of the military or some sort of civil service.

[Freak Out]

a reporter getting blown into pieces by a machine gun because somebody up there in a helicopter fucked up.

No one in the helicopter "fucked up." The rules of engagement were clearly followed and the gunner refrained from firing on the journalist as he crawled away.

If anything the journalists "fucked up." Not a great idea to hang out with a bunch of guys with RPGs and AK47s during a firefight.

The one thing I have a problem with is when they fired on the van that came to try and take the casualties away. There is a time to let off the trigger....we were all taught that.

The journalists were treading on dangerous ground and they knew it.....it comes with the job.

[Maxie the Taxi]

To Maxi's point about the draft.....I've said before that I believe all US citizens should serve their country in some capacity for two-four years after high school....be it a branch of the military or some sort of civil service.

What purpose would such mandatory "service" have other than to provide the government with a virtually unlimited supply of young, stupid and strong canon fodder?

The norm in this country is parents control the child pretty much exclusively from birth to 7 years old. From 7 to 18 our young people are "educated" in government schools by government-employed teachers. And now you seem ready to demand that they serve their government masters by doing whatever the government wants them to do for another two to four years.

From the kid's point of view, I don't see a whole lot of difference between growing up in your new world vs growing up in N. Korea, China, Cuba or Venezuela.

Where in the Constitution does it say what you suggest can be done?

[Zool]

I think Kiwon's point is, should we even have access to this sort of video footage ever? I don't think we need to view this shit. I realize these things happen but I'm definitely not morbid enough to need to watch it happen.

You mean Little Whiskey?

Yes....damn

Anyways no I don't think its censorship. It clearly states its classified materials. It might be semantics but where do we draw the line with military information? Should we publish the UAV shots that are being taken daily to YouTube?

Is it censorship because human life was lost or because of the situation? Should there be a camera crew present at all possible military actions so that we aren't censored from seeing whats going on? For that matter lets start having access to all surgical video from every hospital just in case a patient dies.

People are murdered daily in our country by other people. Maybe we need video footage of that too? The world is becoming too small for its own good IMO.