Questions on Rape - continuing the Ben thread

[Scott Campbell]

So what's the deal with alcohol and consent? If a woman says yes, but she's intoxicated, it's rape? And if so, how does that work if the man says yes but was drunk. Is the woman a rapist? And if they're both drunk, are they both rapists?

If this law only can be used against a male perpetrator, that seems gender biased to me. At least on the surface.

Maybe somebody can explain the logic behind it. It's not intuitive to me.

[MJZiggy]

So what's the deal with alcohol and consent? If a woman says yes, but she's intoxicated, it's rape? And if so, how does that work if the man says yes but was drunk. Is the woman a rapist? And if they're both drunk, are they both rapists?

If this law only can be used against a male perpetrator, that seems gender biased to me. At least on the surface.

Maybe somebody can explain the logic behind it. It's not intuitive to me.

Here's my understanding and opinion: I believe that as the law states, if a person is compromised, they cannot give consent (like I don't think you can make a binding contract while drunk), be it man or woman (but a man is so less likely to press charges). I believe under the law that it is possible to rape a man, though technically I'd assume pretty difficult to get him to "perform" against his will but men do get raped by other men. As to my opinion, if you got drunk and said yes, you should just shut up and wake up with regrets as most in that situation do. I think if two people get drunk and have sex, it is what it is, but my understanding of the "big" Ben case is that this is not what happened and that's where it gets ugly for him. The difference is that she did not say yes and tried to leave.

For the record, though, I was not so much offended by Harrell's post. But having dealt with him in the past and seeing the lack of comprehension in his response to my posts, I thought perhaps if I drove it home hard enough, he might realize that the facts in the Roethlisberger case are not simply a girl getting drunk and doing something she'd regret later. It was not a matter of her feeling bad because he left the bedroom after a little nookie. He forced himself on her in a bathroom in a bar. There's a world of difference there.

By the way, I disagree that that discussion was worth leaving the forum over. There have been plenty worthy, but this was simply a case of JH being a bullheaded idiot. (sorry JH). He didn't call FC or anyone else names on the topic, he merely stuck to a wrong opinion/definition. No one in the thread got to namecalling, did they? In contrast to every Favre thread/post since his second unretirement. Like Joe said, at that time, folks had reason to want to stop posting, but this is small beans in comparison. It's just a matter of getting JH to progress another couple hundred years, but honestly most of his posts since his latest banning have been respectful football discussion.

[Scott Campbell]

So what's the deal with alcohol and consent? If a woman says yes, but she's intoxicated, it's rape? And if so, how does that work if the man says yes but was drunk. Is the woman a rapist? And if they're both drunk, are they both rapists?

If this law only can be used against a male perpetrator, that seems gender biased to me. At least on the surface.

Maybe somebody can explain the logic behind it. It's not intuitive to me.

Here's my understanding and opinion: I believe that as the law states, if a person is compromised, they cannot give consent (like I don't think you can make a binding contract while drunk), be it man or woman (but a man is so less likely to press charges). I believe under the law that it is possible to rape a man, though technically I'd assume pretty difficult to get him to "perform" against his will but men do get raped by other men. As to my opinion, if you got drunk and said yes, you should just shut up and wake up with regrets as most in that situation do. I think if two people get drunk and have sex, it is what it is, but my understanding of the "big" Ben case is that this is not what happened and that's where it gets ugly for him. The difference is that she did not say yes and tried to leave.

This alcohol thing looks like a really slippery slope to me. I'm not sure how you can lump in a drunken regrettable yes with a violent rape. They're two very, very different acts.

[MJZiggy]

So what's the deal with alcohol and consent? If a woman says yes, but she's intoxicated, it's rape? And if so, how does that work if the man says yes but was drunk. Is the woman a rapist? And if they're both drunk, are they both rapists?

If this law only can be used against a male perpetrator, that seems gender biased to me. At least on the surface.

Maybe somebody can explain the logic behind it. It's not intuitive to me.

Here's my understanding and opinion: I believe that as the law states, if a person is compromised, they cannot give consent (like I don't think you can make a binding contract while drunk), be it man or woman (but a man is so less likely to press charges). I believe under the law that it is possible to rape a man, though technically I'd assume pretty difficult to get him to "perform" against his will but men do get raped by other men. As to my opinion, if you got drunk and said yes, you should just shut up and wake up with regrets as most in that situation do. I think if two people get drunk and have sex, it is what it is, but my understanding of the "big" Ben case is that this is not what happened and that's where it gets ugly for him. The difference is that she did not say yes and tried to leave.

This alcohol thing looks like a really slippery slope to me. I'm not sure how you can lump in a drunken regrettable yes with a violent rape. They're two very, very different acts.

I agree with this. That's why I gave what I think is the legal definition vs. my opinion. To me the "regrettable yes" (nice phrasing) while drunk shouldn't constitute rape. After all, then what's the guy supposed to do? She said yes and in the morning he's got police knocking on his door. That's not right. With this legal definition, you also have to get into the whole discussion (likely in court and paying the lawyers by the hour) of how drunk is too drunk to consent? Is it after one beer? Two? I can see perhaps blaming drunkenness if she's passed out cold and he just helps himself, but at the same time while that's ugly and an obvious personal violation, it's not the same trauma as being pulled into an alley and assaulted at knifepoint.

[Scott Campbell]

I can see perhaps blaming drunkenness if she's passed out cold and he just helps himself............

That fits the definition of rape to me.

[Tarlam!]

She never said a drunken yes, according to her. She went straight to the police. The accused took advantage of her and if it were my daughter, he would now be called the deceased.

Look, I've lived a little. I've been out and about. I've received and provided drunken yes's. But I've also received and ALWAYS respected drunk/sober no's.

Did I try and sweet talk a drunk/sober no into a yes? C'mon, I'm a hetero dude! We've all done our sweet talking! And you lady rats have all been sweet talked to, enibriated or sober. That's the way the game is played.

But the usually stronger male of the species has the ultimate responsibility if a couple make love(lust) or a rape takes place.

[Administrator]

Scott, yes, that's what I meant. If she's passed out, that would be rape.

Tar, we're in agreement. We all have our lusty interludes some better than others, but they're consenting.

[Administrator]

In this individual case, the only reason I wonder if it was actually rape, was because her first story was that she said, "no, this isn't right" and he said, "yes, it's OK, it is". . . .

Just based on her first statement, it was right on that gray line to me. Was the, "yes, it's OK" pursuasive enough for her to stop with the no's and go along, or was it an, "against her will" rape?


Her statement, after the attorney, was much less gray.


When I read that rape case, I don't see a whole lot of gray area if Ben's a decent person. I don't think he is, at this point in his life. But is he a rapist? I'm not certain. Just reading that first statement, it reads something like some regrettable sex I've had.

I sort of resisted, but after a little sleezy female convincing, I gave in and had the regrettable sex.

If it was rape, and it very well could have been, he belongs in prison. If it wasn't rape and Ben is just a creepy piece of shit that deceives and manipulates women into sex, then he's still a dirt ball, but doesn't belong in prison, just hell if he can't find his way to being a decent person.

[Administrator]

Check this out. It's from the University of Georgia.

http://www.uga.edu/ovp/sexvio.html

Examples of sexual violence


Using threats and intimidation to get sex is sexual violence.
"My partner threatened to break up with me if we didn't have sex soon, so I just went along with it even though I didn't want to."

Not taking no for an answer is sexual violence.
"My spouse wanted to have sex, but I didn't. I kept saying no, but my spouse would not leave me alone. I didn't know what else to do, so I just gave in."

Using drugs or alcohol to facilitate sex is sexual violence.
"She said no at first, but after a few hours of me buying her drinks at the bar it was easy to get her to come home with me and have sex."

Using physical force or threats of force to get sex is sexual violence.
"I said no, but the person just held me down and did it anyway."

Unwanted sexual touching (sexual battery) is sexual violence.
"I was on a crowded bus and someone grabbed my butt."

Unwanted requests, comments, jokes, name-calling, or rumors of a sexual nature are sexual violence.
"He told everyone that I was a slut and would sleep with anyone."

Street harassment is sexual violence.
"I was out for a jog and a car full of people drove by and yelled obscene things at me."

[Administrator]

Unwanted requests, comments, jokes, name-calling, or rumors of a sexual nature are sexual violence.[/b]
"He told everyone that I was a slut and would sleep with anyone."

What is that's Madonna, talking about Jose Canseco?

[Administrator]

Using drugs or alcohol to facilitate sex is sexual violence.
"She said no at first, but after a few hours of me buying her drinks at the bar it was easy to get her to come home with me and have sex."

I hope two mimosas isn't going to get anybody convicted of rape. This is ridiculous.

[Administrator]

I think it's one of two things here:


1. Ben is a rapist. Tiger, Wilt, Brett, all of the those with rumors of infidelity and promiscuity. . . . Nobody is accused of rape really, except Ben. The reason? Because he's a rapist.


The other thing I think is possible is:

2. Ben goes out on a mission to have sex with a beautiful girl. He doesn't want dirt balls. He wants beautiful, normal girls that he's attracted to and probably aren't infested with every disease known to man. He treats them really well, gets them in high pressure sex situations and has sex with them. Immediately after, he treats them so badly that they feel disgusting and dirty for having been used. With that horrible feeling, they file sexual assault charges.



Honestly, the 2nd sounds far fetched. He's probably a rapist, but I don't know that it's a certainty. There's no reason to be fair to a rapist, but I don't see enough proof for me to categorize him as a rapist, let alone convict him (although I strongly suspect it).

[Administrator]

I was in the process of splitting topics to create this thread. You guys were posting so fast, I couldn't keep up and I cannot merge threads.

NO POSTS WERE LOST.

continue on.... :P <sigh>

[Scott Campbell]

Using threats and intimidation to get sex is sexual violence.
"My partner threatened to break up with me if we didn't have sex soon, so I just went along with it even though I didn't want to."

Anyone that willingly caves into this kind of pressure has some serious issues. It does not fit what I would define as sexual violence.

[Scott Campbell]

Using physical force or threats of force to get sex is sexual violence.
"I said no, but the person just held me down and did it anyway."

I'd call that rape, but who am I to argue with the University of Georgia.