Questions on Rape - continuing the Ben thread

[RashanGary]

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/commentary/news/story?id=5118128

This is a well written piece that doesn't assume guilt or innocence, but touches on worst case and best case (which is still really bad) for Ben.

[Tarlam!]

I understand the, "no means no" thing, but this is a shade of gray, he said, she said. . . And just reading through the story, I'd tend to lean toward what he said although even at best, he's still a piece of shit, just not a violent sex criminal.

It's goign to be popular to side against the evil man and for the girl becuase so many have had horrific rape and it's easier to empathize, but I'm not so sure it's all sowed up here. The courts didn't think so and whether she presses charges or not, the court absolutely will if they have enough evidence to. That is completely beside the point here.

JH, have you been partaking in less coffee than nrormal? Your last paragraph is somewhat incoherent,

You do know that in pre historic times, it wasn't considered violant to club a female and drag her by her hair to a place "fit" for intercourse, if anthropoligists are to be believed.

In modern times, lawmakers have prudently seen the error of the ways of some religous teachings and sectarian practices to equalize consenting partners within and without wedlock.

Lawmakers have a very clear definition of rape, of which, violence no longer a mandatory parameter.

Consent is the only parameter. Consent by adults in full control of their wits and senses.

Secondly, the courts haven't decided anything. The case never saw the inside of a court.

[RashanGary]

Well, in absense of further verbal or physical communication, spreading ones legs and taking it after being told, "it's OK", should not be considered rape.

There is more than just verbal communication. If Ben said it was OK, and she let herself to him without any further rebuttle, it can be understandably received, as, "yes, it is OK", especially when all signs, all night pointed to that. I mean, she was, "down to fuck", right?

I can, and have, had several rounds of consentual sex where no verbal agreement of the contrary was ever made. I've had a "no I"m not interested" turn into girl on top, obvioulsy consent sex with no further verbal agreement after. Let's not convict every wealthy man who's ever been told no at first of rape, if the girl eventually chooses to have sex after the no. It's happened. It happens and if the guy leaves her in a bathroom like trash, and she feels disgusting, it's not grounds to imprison the man who she agreed, physically, to have sex with.

Nobody wants to hear it, but there is a very good chance this girl put herself in a situation and didn't do the right things to communicate her wishes. Instead, let Ben have sex with her, felt nasty when he got up and left her in a bathroom and then felt and claimed rape. It's possible.

[RashanGary]

Still makes ben a slime ball and worse than many criminals but crime and right and wrong are very different thigns. I'm not convinced Ben committed a crime, although I am convinced he committed a wrong (in my view of what is right and wrong).

[MJZiggy]

Well, in absense of further verbal or physical communication, spreading ones legs and taking it after being told, "it's OK", should not be considered rape.

There is more than just verbal communication. If Ben said it was OK, and she let herself to him without any further rebuttle, it can be understandably received, as, "yes, it is OK", especially when all signs, all night pointed to that. I mean, she was, "down to fuck", right?

I can, and have, had several rounds of consentual sex where no verbal agreement of the contrary was ever made. I've had a "no I"m not interested" turn into girl on top, obvioulsy consent sex with no further verbal agreement after. Let's not convict every wealthy man who's ever been told no at first of rape, if the girl eventually chooses to have sex after the no. It's happened. It happens and if the guy leaves her in a bathroom like trash, and she feels disgusting, it's not grounds to imprison the man who she agreed, physically, to have sex with.

Nobody wants to hear it, but there is a very good chance this girl put herself in a situation and didn't do the right things to communicate her wishes. Instead, let Ben have sex with her, felt nasty when he got up and left her in a bathroom and then felt and claimed rape. It's possible.

In every account of this story, she said no. She did not give consent. How do you figure that she gave consensual sex and just felt bad after when according to the police report, he just told her it was ok and did what he wanted in the bathroom? I don't care what it said on her nametag, she has a right to decide who she's actually down to fuck with. Him being rich and famous does not give him the right to decide for her. She can give all the signals she wants, yet there is NO indication from any account here that it wasn't rape. It's not like this was a romantic interlude between two people who were acquainted in a sweet little hotel room somewhere. He put a guard at the door (you need a guard for consensual sex?) told her it's ok and took what he wanted. There is no way you can spin this where it isn't rape. I just doesn't work. You may think you know how women think, but if you're feeling shitty about having slept with someone, you don't go running to announce it publicly (in this case excruciatingly publicly). You shut up and pray you didn't catch anything or get pregnant. Your theory just doesn't work.

And by the way, if a girl told you no and you didn't take no for an answer, consider yourself VERY lucky, son. I've had a man nearly wound himself backing off when he THOUGHT I MIGHT have told him to stop. There's no way I could ever have accused him of anything-not even close. It also made me respect that guy a whole lot.

[RashanGary]

Ziggy, jeeze. I'd never do anything like that.

I'm simply saying there are more ways to communicate than just verbal and going along with sex is the same as consenting. Shit, people who can't even speak the same language have sex from time to time.

After reading all of this, I don't think her communication was consistent, or clear enough to be understood.

[Tarlam!]

JH, what part of "having sex with a women that is in no control of her emotional state due to substance abuse consitutes rape" is so difficult for you to understand?

You can argue that you think the law sucks and that life is different in reality and all that. And we'd have a better discussion.

But your comments about "opening her legs and going along with it" or "a no doesen't mean a no" are still about a 20 year old women that was totally incable of making a coherent decision, as is proven by her reaction after the fact.

You argue, she felt cheap, because Ben just zipped up his fly and left her there. That's why she went to the cops.

The only reason I can think of for your posturing over this is that you have also had sex in similar situations. You knew it was wrong. You knew you were taking advantage. You now have discovered what the law and society at large thinks about it. And you are either extremely ashamed and plagued by guilt or still in denial that you raped someone yourself and desperately trying to justify your actions.
Y'know, if that were reality, JH, she would have dropped the charges when she sobered up. Any normal person would. Instead, she made coherent statements to reinforce her side of the events.

Thus, in the eyes of the law, SHE WAS RAPED.

[Little Whiskey]

has Ben made any statments about this yet? police report? seems to me there has only been one side to this story.

[Tarlam!]

has Ben made any statments about this yet? police report? seems to me there has only been one side to this story.

The bulk of the thread got dumped into the GC, Whiskey. There are links to the police report etc.

[Bretsky]

has Ben made any statments about this yet? police report? seems to me there has only been one side to this story.

You'll get no specifics at all from Ben; it's what a lawyer will advise. If he says something to make himself look good and it turns out not to be true...........

[RashanGary]

No, Tar, I've never done anything like that. But agreeing to have sex and being raped are two different things. Guys can lie, sweet talk and pressure a girl to have sex the same way a girl can lie, seduce and dirty talk a married guy to have sex.

If the person ends up going along, even after initial objection, it's all that person fault. Married guy, buzzed girl. Don't put yourself in bad spots and it won't happen.

[Guiness]

I don't think JH is posturing Tar, and I don't think it's right for you to throw that out there. This has been a pretty good discussion without personal barbs being thrown around, and with some related personal experiences thrown in. There was no need for accusations in this thread

I still agree with your position JH.

The statement "having sex with a women that is in no control of her emotional state due to substance abuse constitutes rape" bothers me - too close to the 'too drunk to know better' defense that was popular for some crimes a while back. If the statement you made is admissible, the converse of it would set the prosecution of rape back quite a bit.

You also say any normal person would have dropped the charges when she sobered up - who's to say she's a normal person? I know we're not putting her on trial, but we have to admit we know absolutely nothing about her.

[Tarlam!]

Thanks for the heads up Guiness, but to be honest, JH talked about personal experiences before I made my remarks. I will try not to cross the line in future.

I think we know a lot about the incident based on the DA's reaction. The fact that the first Policeman to investigate has since resigned.

The simple fact that the Rooneys are looking to ship him out, or the fact that he faces severe NFL suspension from 2-6 weeks, also tells us a great deal.

[Guiness]

Thanks for seeing that Tarlam. JH has shared some insights that are relevant on the topic.

I think I've read most of the stuff on this (at least everything posted here) but not sure what you are referring to by the DA's reaction? Did he make a statement or something?

There's another thread about the suspension that I posted in. Somewhat like JH, I think BR is a slime, and has done some awful things. But I also think punishing him for allegations is a very dangerous path.

OTOH maybe my one of my own experiences are colouring things. During my divorce proceedings, my STBX (soon to be ex) filed assault charges on me. I was picking some stuff up from the house, and the dog jumped on me. I was not in the mood, and shoved the dog away. She came running across the yard screaming at me, and grabbed me by the neck. I told her to fuck off, and shoved her. She did the full ten point dive into the garden, and had 911 dialed before she hit the ground. Came up bruised and dirty. As an aside, this woman bruises very easily, I can honestly say I never saw her without several bruises on her body. I, on the other hand, don't bruise at all, so I had no marks.

Cops show up, and I spend 6-8h in a cell.

[Tarlam!]

I think I've read most of the stuff on this (at least everything posted here) but not sure what you are referring to by the DA's reaction? Did he make a statement or something?

Indeed he did. The DA chastized Ben very publicly. Joe dumped the first thread into the GC. There are links in there that you can find to help get an understanding of where I'm coming from.

For me it comes down to this: What if he did this to my 17 year old daughter. She, like the girl in the article is one year off of the legal drinking age and already frequents bars and clubs.

She is at a boarding school so I have no control over it, no matter how well meaning I might be.

BTW, I can FULLY relate to your experience, but that's not for the forum.